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We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Printable Version

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We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Mario - 08-04-2018

First off, it feels like the Discord is being swept under the rug in several was. For example, the MFGG Wiki doesn't document the Discord very much at all; at least not well enough to give it its own article. Even on the Main Page, under "Important Groups" you have sections for articles about the site, the forums, even the wiki itself but absolutely nothing about the Discord. What gives? Even if we toned down how the wiki records MFGG history in either a new wiki or radical changes to the current one, one of the major ways for MFGG users to connect officially shouldn't be swept under the rug like this.

Another way the Discord feels like its being swept under the rug is how it's handled. It's total chaos, every day. There needs to be some serious talk for moderating it. Seems like every day there's some meltdown going on in the Discord, there's members constantly trying to be staff talking down to members while staff is there trying to resolve the issue, and even when staff DO try and handle things, members keep the discussion going on and on about what just happened. How is this OK? I'm willing to bet other staff who see this happening just log out cuz they don't want to deal with it- I don''t exactly blame them but this absolute absurdity needs to stop.  It feels like this cycle of absurdity is always happening too. I wanted to start documenting just a bit of the chaos on the Wiki so we couldn't just ignore it, but apparently there's some hard to find "notability guidelines" on the wiki that make things that happen on Discord not notable- we have tons of articles about the most mundane forum events but talking about issues on Discord isn't allowed.

Unlike the forums, the past on Discord gets swept away very easily, we need to get more serious about keeping track of what goes on or the Discord is just going to continue to be an aimless mess.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Syaxamaphone - 08-04-2018

Personally I wouldn't mind if the MFGG discord suddenly stopped existing.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - rollerC - 08-04-2018

Here’s my unironic, most radical position: we need a #controversial channel to deal with the constant public arguments in a controlled place until they die down permanently.

I know. Radical.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Mario - 08-04-2018

(08-04-2018, 07:27 PM)Syaxamaphone Wrote: Personally I wouldn't mind if the MFGG discord suddenly stopped existing.

If nothing else works this is probably a fair way to go. I know there's arguments on the forums from time to time but in all my years of MFGG it's never felt like the Discord does.

(08-04-2018, 07:31 PM)rollerC Wrote: Here’s my unironic, most radical position: we need a #controversial channel to deal with the constant public arguments in a controlled place until they die down permanently.

I know. Radical.

If arguments are truly unavoidable, then some containment channel might be the way to go. I'm not 100% sure I'm on board with it but I don't think it'd hurt to try.

Personally I'd like a #meta channel for MFGG-related discussion that isn't necessarily a suggestion. Right now a lot of that happens all over the place and it's probably not the best for new visitors to drop into #general and instead of us talking about our favorite mario games its about some argument with MFGG staff.



RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - SonicKade2048 - 08-04-2018

If I'm going to be honest (which I am), blame the members for doing these things in the first place instead of the staff for being "lazy". I'd like for you to understand that everyone online has a life of their own, whether it be from creating games or working on projects they want to get done to working their butts off in their jobs so they can help support themselves or their family. Whatever it is, we all have lives, and we can't be around 24/7 to get things fixed, especially staff members of places such as MFGG.

Mario Wrote:I'm willing to bet other staff who see this happening just log out cuz they don't want to deal with it
Please watch what you're saying. This is a public place where staff members can see what you've written after you posted it. I don't want to see more people get banned for the exact same thing, it's honestly making me upset.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Fun With Despair - 08-04-2018

I'm genuinely confused by this discourse about the Discord and the Wiki. We've already ultimately settled on working to create a new fangame focused wiki to replace this drama-filled one after all the complaints of it being nothing but dumb overdramatic stuff irrelevant to the current site.

I don't understand why now suddenly you are pushing to log discord drama on the wiki. Are you trying to prove a point? Because newsflash:

By agreeing to work to replace this drama hub of a wiki, we ALREADY AGREED WITH YOU.

Stuff like this is just sabotaging your own credibility, my dude. And this is the Minus World Guy™ saying this, so if you're not gonna listen to anyone else, at least listen to me when I tell you that as much as I agree with your previous stance on the wiki, these actions are making you look like the fool here, and that is actively damaging to your own desire for change.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Mario - 08-04-2018

(08-04-2018, 08:02 PM)KirbyLover2048 Wrote: If I'm going to be honest (which I am), blame the members for doing these things in the first place instead of the staff for being "lazy". I'd like for you to understand that everyone online has a life of their own, whether it be from creating games or working on projects they want to get done to working their butts off in their jobs so they can help support themselves or their family. Whatever it is, we all have lives, and we can't be around 24/7 to get things fixed, especially staff members of places such as MFGG.

Mario Wrote:I'm willing to bet other staff who see this happening just log out cuz they don't want to deal with it
Please watch what you're saying. This is a public place where staff members can see what you've written after you posted it. I don't want to see more people get banned for the exact same thing, it's honestly making me upset.

I didn't call the staff lazy, don't put words in my mouth. It doesn't matter if the staff is lazy, working hard, or whatever. That doesn't change the problems I discussed. Please stop sucking up to the staff, it's incredibly exhausting, especially when you don't even read the posts you're trying to defend the staff from.

(08-04-2018, 08:08 PM)Fun With Despair Wrote: I'm genuinely confused by this discourse about the Discord and the Wiki. We've already ultimately settled on working to create a new fangame focused wiki to replace this drama-filled one after all the complaints of it being nothing but dumb overdramatic stuff irrelevant to the current site.

I don't understand why now suddenly you are pushing to log discord drama on the wiki. Are you trying to prove a point? Because newsflash:

By agreeing to work to replace this drama hub of a wiki, we ALREADY AGREED WITH YOU.

Stuff like this is just sabotaging your own credibility, my dude. And this is the Minus World Guy™ saying this, so if you're not gonna listen to anyone else, at least listen to me when I tell you that as much as I agree with your previous stance on the wiki, these actions are making you look like the fool here, and that is actively damaging to your own desire for change.

What is there to be confused about? Good luck with the wiki, but fixing the issues with the wiki, whatever they are, won't fix any of the issues with the Discord.

My credibility? If staff are actively ignoring suggestions because someone they don't like made them, they're more interested in petty grudges than making MFGG a better place for everyone.

Also Minus World is completely irrelevant here, not sure why it needs to be brought up anytime someone points out MFGG is doing things wrong.



RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Kritter - 08-04-2018

Could you not just make an article yourself? Isn't this how the wiki works?

As for Discord issues, welcome to any online chat MFGG has ever had in the history of this website which is why I refuse to be a part of that scene. Dunno if documenting that drama is the way to go though but you could always post about it here, I don't see why it has to be a separate entity seeing as it's "official".


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - VinnyVideo - 08-04-2018

As @Kritter noted, it's always challenging to take care of a large, fast-moving chat group. However, we're working on doing things that should help improve the Discord group - for example, getting new Discord-specific moderators so that someone will be monitoring the group at all hours. We're actively discussing ways to make the moderation more consistent and better address problem members.

I disagree that we're "sweeping it under the rug" - the Discord group has a link on the mainsite, which is the #1 way we get new people. We've also promoted it on the forums and on our Twitter, and we've established partnerships with several similar Discord groups. We haven't done too much more than that just because it's getting a lot of new members and we feel that the forums and mainsite should still be the focal point of the community. The Discord group should have a page on the Wiki, but if it bothers you that we don't have one, you can always make one yourself!


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Mario - 08-04-2018

(08-04-2018, 09:45 PM)Kritter Wrote: Could you not just make an article yourself? Isn't this how the wiki works?
(08-04-2018, 10:38 PM)VinnyVideo Wrote: The Discord group should have a page on the Wiki, but if it bothers you that we don't have one, you can always make one yourself!
I tried adding some articles today but Vinny didn't like them. With the confusing placement of the 'rules' of the wiki and now apparently we're on the verge of re-doing it all, I can't say I want to put the effort into it at this time.

(08-04-2018, 09:45 PM)Kritter Wrote: As for Discord issues, welcome to any online chat MFGG has ever had in the history of this website which is why I refuse to be a part of that scene.
If these issues are so predictable for you, you're exactly the input I wan to try and work out solutions for it. It's a real shame that despite there being a previous unofficial discord manned by some staff and active community members and a test period for the official one that we're apparently totally unprepared for the constant meltdowns that happen. What do yo u think would need to be done to make it a Discord server you'd join?

(08-04-2018, 09:45 PM)Kritter Wrote: Dunno if documenting that drama is the way to go though but you could always post about it here, I don't see why it has to be a separate entity seeing as it's "official".
All history is drama. "Drama" is what I want to write about the Discord server because that's what happens pretty much every day on it.  That's what's notable about it; that's where we are with it. I don't want the wiki to become an archive of so-called drama either, but the best solution for that is to stop the drama itself, not have the Wiki be some squeaky clean archive of MFGG's history that can't be honest about what really goes on.

(08-04-2018, 10:38 PM)VinnyVideo Wrote: As @Kritter noted, it's always challenging to take care of a large, fast-moving chat group.
Exactly why we need to take it seriously.

(08-04-2018, 10:38 PM)VinnyVideo Wrote: However, we're working on doing things that should help improve the Discord group - for example, getting new Discord-specific moderators so that someone will be monitoring the group at all hours. We're actively discussing ways to make the moderation more consistent and better address problem members.
Sounds great, I'd love to hear more.

(08-04-2018, 10:38 PM)VinnyVideo Wrote: I disagree that we're "sweeping it under the rug" - the Discord group has a link on the mainsite, which is the #1 way we get new people. We've also promoted it on the forums and on our Twitter, and we've established partnerships with several similar Discord groups. We haven't done too much more than that just because it's getting a lot of new members and we feel that the forums and mainsite should still be the focal point of the community.
Promotion and advertising is important, sure, but that alone doesn't give me any confidence you guys are taking it seriously- especially with the comment about hte main site and forums. Either you want to run it or you don't, either it's really challenging to run a big server or it's something you can just do on the side. The wishy-washy middle ground approach here has been a disaster so far and I'm not confident it'll change much without us approaching the issues as a community.



RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - rollerC - 08-05-2018

(08-04-2018, 09:44 PM)Mario Wrote: What is there to be confused about? Good luck with the wiki, but fixing the issues with the wiki, whatever they are, won't fix any of the issues with the Discord.

My credibility? If staff are actively ignoring suggestions because someone they don't like made them, they're more interested in petty grudges than making MFGG a better place for everyone.

Also Minus World is completely irrelevant here, not sure why it needs to be brought up anytime someone points out MFGG is doing things wrong.

1. Precisely, which is why documenting the Discord drama on a Wiki that we've agreed should not be about drama is absolutely pointless. I have no issue with keeping record of drama, but it's blatantly hypocritical and in contradiction to this post that you wrote. I know you'll ask "How is that an example of my hypocrisy?" so let me answer that for you ahead of time.

1A. 
(08-03-2018, 10:05 PM)Mario Wrote: Yeah honestly I think we should start over with a new wiki and learn from the lessons of the past. All of the user pages and whatnot don't really have a place and I think they kinda glorify some bad behaviors honestly.


If you didn't want to glorify bad behavior, you wouldn't have made a Wiki page about what happened in #art-showcase before.

1B. 
(08-03-2018, 10:05 PM)Mario Wrote: Another thing that might not really have a place is strictly fan game pages- honestly any information about a fan game should probably go on its page on the main site (which we can think about things to add to LumaSMS while we're on the subject). The wiki would probably be most useful for tutorials and guides on game making in general.

While I agreed with you on this point, it doesn't make any sense now that you seemingly think it's OK to make the Wiki about drama but not fangames. Not to mention you said it would be "most useful for tutorials...on game making in general," and I don't see how drama fits into that.

2. The reasons I outlined above are why Despair said you are ruining your own credibility. Trust me when I say the majority of staff discussion has been about the things you and Stir have brought up. None of the staff are taking you not seriously because if it. But other members who want to avoid drama and things of that nature see what you wrote on the Discord and on this thread, and it ruins your image to them. I was on your side about this until you suddenly decided to make some sort of point with the Wiki page that made absolutely no sense, since we'd largely agreed we needed to begin work on a new wiki, and were still discussing it. Bringing up the Wiki is intrinsic to your character specifically, not the merit of your argument, and that's why FWD brought it up.

3. Minus World is the place you immediately brought your Wiki article to when you first made it, and I have proof of that if you want me to show you. And since you were using the article to point out what is wrong with the Discord, this statement is hypocritical as well.



Again, I fully agree we need to have a discussion about the Discord, the Wiki, and all of these things. MFGG is not a healthy community in my opinion. But what you're doing with this thread and mainly what you did in the Discord really only made the whole situation worse for all of us "reformists". If you want to keep track of what happens on the Discord, I will start a mega-thread in Suggestions for us to use when we need to document something that happened on there that we can learn from. As for the "total chaos" that's in there everyday, we are working our asses off to fix it; keep in mind all the chat moderators only got promoted a week ago. I want us to have a discussion about the frequent minimodding, overuse of pings, the inability to follow general maturity, the inability to not make every argument an aggressive one, the inability to not keep the server placid for one damn day.

But I don't need more confusing positions and statements like the ones you've made today blocking us up. I want an MFGG reform as much as you do, but we have to go about it in a civilized way.

Thus is the end of my rant.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Shadow Administrator Drei - 08-05-2018

There's nothing incongruent about actively documenting issues in the manner the de facto head admin was actively arguing for while also pointing out the flaws in the system. Please stop disregarding someone for not sharing a perspective or disagreeing on procedural actions. The importance of discord documenting involves resolution, not laughs. Right now, there's just hot sir and niceties about what is the Discord, its issues, and potential solutions.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - rollerC - 08-05-2018

GothGirlGangDrei Wrote: Please stop disregarding someone for not sharing a perspective or disagreeing on procedural actions.

Actually, that’s not at all what I was doing. I was pointing out why Mario’s actions were hypocritical. Sorry, but unless you’re actually going to read what I wrote, I’m not too keen on responding to the rest of this.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Mario - 08-05-2018

Not going to bother reading that long post, it's a waste of time to discuss whatever thoughts I have about the wiki in this thread beyond clarifying my statement (which I already did). Giant arguments for inconsequential things are better left to the Discord (LOL) or rather not at all.

If you really want to dismiss discussion of the problems with the Discord by myself and others (for some reason) because you don't like what I said about the wiki or whatever then that really speaks volumes for the way pettiness is more important than making real progress on MFGG.

I get that the staff see problems and "are working on them" but it's been months. I'm not sure if we are even on the same page with what the problems are. That's why I believe we need to take the Discord seriously and have a serious discussion about what the problems are, and not sweep the Discord under the rug. Solutions are great, of course, but bring the wrong solution to a problem and you're just making more problems, which is why laying out the problems should be our first and foremost goal if we have any intention of making the Discord better.



RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - rollerC - 08-05-2018

Good job not reading my post, because once again you miss the point. It has nothing to do with the Wiki. It’s my response to your response to FWD, which I felt was not at all adequate, because it was a genuine concern, and on top of that, I agreed we need to have a discussion about the Discord.

Now tell me, who’s dismissing who?

Read my post, then get back to me.


RE: We need to have a serious talk about the discord - Yoshin - 08-05-2018

Since for some reason MyBB ate my post
I'm locking this thread so we can have a general purpose megathread related to all things discord related.


This forum uses Lukasz Tkacz MyBB addons.