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+---- Thread: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More (/showthread.php?tid=1979)
Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Mario - 08-04-2019
I am going to discuss some serious frustration I have with how MFGG has been run for years- this goes beyond the current staff and maybe even way back to the beginning. But I think it needs to be said, we need to look our problems in the face if we ever want to solve them.
I found out Stir was banned for his signature- absurd! He can't poke fun at the political climate of MFGG and his role in it? I can understand taking issue with some of the wording but come on, that's a call for him to be asked to change it- not a year long ban!
It's utterly absurd how much worship former staff get here. They retire, they get a big thread with all everyone saying how much they appreciated their work and how much they'll miss them but is that enough? No! Seems like they need every member to kiss their feet constantly even after they've stepped down. I am not saying the work they did isn't valuable, but the work any other member does is valuable too. There will never be enough ego stroking for you guys.
Stir has put countless hours of work into providing feedback to improve this community. He may not always approach things in the way you'd prefer, but if you're not able to put yourself in his shoes, then I don't think you really respect either the role you have as staff or the role members have as the community. Frustration dealing with staff making bad and harmful decisions is going to be natural- even if you don't see such decisions that way you need to understand that perspectives other than your own exist. It makes it feel like you guys don't value feedback. "Without this faith in people, dialogue is a farce which inevitably degenerates into paternalistic manipulation." - Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
The community is essential to MFGG and too often it feels like the community's needs and input are shunned or unwanted. I honestly believe it's the staff that has been keeping MFGG back because of this attitude- it's the community that brought back all these old members and reconnecting with each other. Not the site or whatever else. Yet time and time again, community input is downplayed and downplayed and the staff are somehow baffled at frustration in the community. Maybe people would be more willing to speak out about issues they have if it didn't feel like you had to climb a mountain and have to put in a ton of defenses of your own character if you say anything.
We need to approach the community as an integral part of the site and their opinions not as outsiders trying to disrupt the vision the staff have but as people ultimately with the same shared goal- making MFGG the best place it can be. I feel like community management is just so heavily disregarded as a real skill. You guys can do fantastic work sifting through submissions and keeping the site alive but when it comes to the community I just don't feel like it's ever been anything staff have respected. Famously this lead to the split in the past and I can feel the same attitudes brewing up because nothing was ever truly addressed- problems were just pushed out and you're going to have to do that every few years if you don't change. Remember that Futurama episode where the big ball of garbage was coming to destroy New New York City? LOL
Look, you guys aren't Gods. You can make rules and enforce policies but their effects go beyond your intentions. We're all part of the same world and bound by the same laws. I feel like you guys treat the community as some kind of bank- you deposit News & Updates and hope to collect interest. It doesn't work that way- we're people and should be respected as such and not be thrown out when we fall out of whatever imaginary line you've made to keep things running smoothly for you.
We can change the course of this ship.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - GeneralGuy - 08-04-2019
If it means a more active forum, then I agree.
Uh, no thanks!
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - DustinVG - 08-04-2019
There is a path to prosperity for this site, but antagonizing your fellow man under the guise of provoking change is, in my honest opinion, not it.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Mario - 08-04-2019
(08-04-2019, 08:42 PM)DustinVG Wrote: There is a path to prosperity for this site, but antagonizing your fellow man under the guise of provoking change is, in my honest opinion, not it.
Agreed, its a real shame how Stir has been treated.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Evil Yoshi Toes - 08-04-2019
I agree with what Dustin said in regard to the way Stir approaches “feedback.†There are plenty of members who provide feedback in a way that's actually productive. A member being confrontational and yelling at staff and blatantly disobeying the rules because he thinks he knows better is not a going to do any good for the community. Also, coming back from a ban and making a list like that especially when he is far from friends with the people listed is really not in good taste.
But in regard to the length and severity of the punishment, I have been pretty vocally against it on the discord feedback channel despite having been the person who did carried it out. That's why I think non-modding staff should not be partaking in moderation decisions because that played a big part in changing the way I handled it for what I consider to be the worse. I'm frustrated with myself for caving and doing something I didn't really support just because of what other people who weren't even mods were saying, and I'm frustrated with the way the staff discord is organized.
I don't think the staff here generally treats the community poorly though. I know you were involved in one pretty frustrating event just about a week ago. That was also an issue where a non-mod was acting as a mod, which I'm very against and I understand your frustration with your suggestions being silenced. Of the actual mod staff, though, I haven't felt that any of them are opposed to discussion and feedback, so long as it is presented in a way that is not confrontational or provoking other members. A lot of feedback happens on the discord too, much of which effects the community both here and there.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Pedigree - 08-04-2019
Stir is abrasive, but if you agree now that how the sig was handled should not have been handled that way, then I see no reason not to reverse the decision.
It should have been left at asking him to remove the signature in PMs, like you said staff was originally going to do before non-mods put in their 2 cents.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Vert - 08-05-2019
I don't really see why he'd deserve to be unbanned. Stir goes out of way to antagonize others, and bragging about the staff you've "killed" right after your previous ban expired can hardly be taken as anything but further antagonizing. At that point PMing him about it won't change his attitude. Considering he changed his signature on MW to contain the same "kill list" that got him banned here, it doesn't seem he regrets doing it or learned anything from the ban.
Maybe a year's excessive for the action in question, but Stir does get warned and/or banned on a regular basis. At a certain point that kind of behavior needs to receive a more appropriate punishment for the message to soak in better.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Mario - 08-05-2019
(08-04-2019, 09:06 PM)Evil Yoshi Toes Wrote: I agree with what Dustin said in regard to the way Stir approaches “feedback.†There are plenty of members who provide feedback in a way that's actually productive. A member being confrontational and yelling at staff and blatantly disobeying the rules because he thinks he knows better is not a going to do any good for the community. Also, coming back from a ban and making a list like that especially when he is far from friends with the people listed is really not in good taste.
Stirs methods are only unproductive because the staff act like he's asking for the impossible when it's just a simple matter of owning their mistakes and apologizing. Of course he's abrasive when the staff continue to let abusive actions go because they already did them and don't want to look weak or whatever their reasoning is- it's pathetic really and reflects very poorly on the staff. It doesn't make the staff look strong, it makes them look like jerks.
If he's disobeying the rules, then you can ban him for that. But the staff tends to be so eager to ban him for anything that they consistently ban him in ways that just don't make sense. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. I don't know how you guys keep making the same mistakes over and over with it.
I don't think anyone should be flaming anyone, for sure. I don't think what Stir has been doing (at least recently on the forums- I can't speak for Discord) is anything close to that though; the staff are just exaggerating what he posts because they have some grudge against him- probably because they're mad they keep making mistakes whenever they do have a valid case aganst him.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Vert - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 05:55 AM)Mario Wrote: Stirs methods are only unproductive because the staff act like he's asking for the impossible when it's just a simple matter of owning their mistakes and apologizing. Of course he's abrasive when the staff continue to let abusive actions go because they already did them and don't want to look weak or whatever their reasoning is- it's pathetic really and reflects very poorly on the staff. It doesn't make the staff look strong, it makes them look like jerks.
Stir's methods don't make him look like a saint either. Handwaving it with "oh he's just joking" or "he just cares so much about MFGG" doesn't change the fact that other members can express their frustrations with staff decisions just fine without riding people up the wall or getting banned in the process.
(08-05-2019, 05:55 AM)Mario Wrote: If he's disobeying the rules, then you can ban him for that.
"Don't harass, annoy, troll, threaten, or flame other members." He put up a list in his signature bragging about the staff he had a hand in "killing". I dunno, seems like it's right there black and white.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - DustinVG - 08-05-2019
I don't think portraying these actions as merely the result of a grudge makes a lot of sense given that the lineup of staff is almost entirely different than what it was 6 months ago. Unless one means to imply that we “passed on†the grudge or that it's just something inherent in the staff position.
If taking action against these occurrences is truly the wrong decision, one would think that fewer people would be so eager to make it.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Mario - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 06:51 AM)DustinVG Wrote: I don't think portraying these actions as merely the result of a grudge makes a lot of sense given that the lineup of staff is almost entirely different than what it was 6 months ago. Unless one means to imply that we “passed on†the grudge or that it's just something inherent in the staff position.I apologize if you're reading it as me making it out to be about a grudge. That is not the case. There is a pattern of poor handling of decisions that needs to be addressed. It doesn't matter who is staff because the pattern continues- and I'm certainly not going to omit the actions of the previous staff if Stir's previous behaviour is being used to make this decision. Either they both get clean slates or neither, you can't divorce history from context.
(08-05-2019, 06:51 AM)DustinVG Wrote: If taking action against these occurrences is truly the wrong decision, one would think that fewer people would be so eager to make it.If something is popular with the staff, that only says that it's popular with the staff. It makes no statement of it being good and certainly nothing about it being above criticism- and if you think otherwise I have to say it's a good thing you stepped down. A more useful thing to ask is WHY is something popular amongst the staff.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Evil Yoshi Toes - 08-05-2019
I can't just reverse the decision because I don't control the staff. I'd rather the ban be reconsidered, but if the majority of mods don't think it was the right decision then I have to step back and understand that I don't run this place.
I can't speak for previous staff, but staff was certainly receptive and willing to discuss Stir's ban and other things on the discord. In fact, we spent all day responding to people's concerns in both the discord feedback channel and the suggestion threads. I'm not saying all staff agreed that Stir's ban should be lifted, but that doesn't mean that their reasoning is because of a grudge or because they don't want to appear weak. It just means that they don't think it deserves to be lifted. I don't think any current mods have a grudge on Stir. As for non-mod staff influencing mod decisions as I've said I don't like that and we've talked about it among the staff, but because they were involved doesn't mean that the decision was inherently wrong or that other mods aren't going to have the same opinion as them without their influence.
You're asking us to put ourselves in Stir's shoes but it seems you haven't put yourself in ours. I respect friends sticking up for each other, but it seems like you're sanitizing Stir a bit. Stir has been very eager to provoke those he doesn't like, even if in subtle ways. His "kill/assist list" was absolutely him provoking ex-staff that he doesn't like and it can't just be passed off as a joke, especially when nobody on his list is his friend. I wouldn't make a post like I don't like [users who I've had problems with in the past] and expect staff to think oh lol it's just a joke!
His way of handling feedback is to just yell at the staff and refuse to follow their rules, the latter of which is what got him his ban last week. I'm sure you can see why staff has its doubts about Stir having MFGG's best interest in mind, and if he really does he has a poor way of showing it. Breaking rules is breaking rules. Everything is open for discussion, but that doesn't mean you can just do whatever you want.
Also, Stir is just asking for staff to own up to their mistakes? So he regularly harasses ex-staff like Vinny, because he just wants him to own up to his mistakes? That's a very immature way to go about that.
I have absolutely no grudge against Stir and I'd love for him to join the community and interact with it in a healthy way. I am also mostly in agreement with you about his recent ban. However, I won't act like he's this poor misunderstood member that the staff has beaten down, because that's just not the case. It's not this black and white issue of the abused underdog bullied by those in power. Both sides have made their mistakes, but Stir is certainly not this innocent party who just wants what is best for MFGG, at least not in my eyes.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - GeneralGuy - 08-05-2019
Honestly, he should be banned for a week at the very most. A year is way, way too much for what he did.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Pedigree - 08-05-2019
Keeping him banned for a year for something you admit staff were originally gonna just pm him on to ask him to remove the signature is pretty ridiculous.
Anything more than a couple weeks for that signature is just overkill no matter how you slice it.
Absolutely nothing you say can justify that ban length.
You can't have it both ways. You can't admit that the way it was handled was wrong and still change nothing.
The staff members that disagree are welcome to join the discussion in this thread or they can abstain their vote. That is the option afforded to them.
Stop making other people speak for you. If you don't have the ability to talk with your community the way that eyt is, then what are you doing on the team?
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Vert - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 10:03 AM)Pedigree Wrote: Keeping him banned for a year for something you admit staff were originally gonna just pm him on to ask him to remove the signature is pretty ridiculous.Maybe without context. In the context of him getting banned constantly, and having just been recently unbanned? No, not really.
Anything more than a couple weeks for that signature is just overkill no matter how you slice it.
(08-05-2019, 10:03 AM)Pedigree Wrote: You can't have it both ways. You can't admit that the way it was handled was wrong and still change nothing.That's assuming that EYT makes decisions on the entirety of the staff, which he already said he doesn't. If nobody was in support of banning Drei for a year, then obviously it wouldn't have happened in the first place.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Evil Yoshi Toes - 08-05-2019
Yes, I hope it's clear that what I am saying here is just my opinion. It doesn't represent what the entire staff thinks. They all have their own individual thoughts on the matter.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Mors - 08-05-2019
I think Stir's ban is justified.
Before you guys start to make up stuff about how much I hate Stir and how I'm biased, no I don't hate Stir, and I think he knows that (I hope lol). I don't really have much of a reason to hate Stir, almost all of my personal experiences with him were good and even when I had to ban him on Discord he took it really well. It's not really that easy for me to have strong opinions about people like that lol. I was also not around when the ban was given because of a game jam I eventually dropped of, but that doesn't matter much I guess.
Anyways, I think it's justified because, well, that signature was horrible. There no other way of putting it, putting the names of staff members you made leave especially when it's true for some of the staff members listed there, is a huge dick move. It doesn't deserve a year of ban on it's own yes, but you guys should remember that this was right after he got a 1 week ban. Let's look at the rules now.
(12-04-2017, 04:58 PM)HylianDev Wrote:
- 50%: Suspended for 1 day
- 70%: Suspended for 1 week
- 90%: Suspended for 1 month
- 100%: Suspended for 1 year
Mods will assign warning points from ranges defined for the following 4 categories:
- Small offenses: 1 point
- Medium offenses: 1 - 2 points
- Big offenses: 2 - 3 points
- Super offenses: 7 - 10 points
The definition of small, medium, big, and super are up to the moderating team. The moderating team maintains a loose guide for which types of offenses fit into which category, and each mod will decide at the time of warning how many points to assign from within a given category.
So a 1 week ban is 7 points. To reach 10 points after that you need to do a "big offense", which is 3 points. And I'd consider that sig a big offense personally.
You might argue and now say that "oh the rules are too harsh" but I disagree with that too. If you break the rules twice in a row in a major way I think you do deserve a harsher punishment. We can't just ban Stir for a week forever.
As for just DMing him and telling him to delete his signature, um, that argument can be made to anything really. Like for an example someone says a mean thing, should we warn them or just DM and tell them to delete their message? That's just ridiculous, if you do something wrong you do need a proper warning or a punishment.
Just like Evil Yoshi said, I would've loved Stir to interact with us in a healthy way. It seems like he can be nice whenever he wants, and he definitely isn't a bad person overall. But I'm not going to give him a free pass because of that.
Now that I gave my opinions about Stir's ban I'll respond to the rest of the initial post.
(08-04-2019, 08:35 PM)Mario Wrote: It's utterly absurd how much worship former staff get here. They retire, they get a big thread with all everyone saying how much they appreciated their work and how much they'll miss them but is that enough? No! Seems like they need every member to kiss their feet constantly even after they've stepped down. I am not saying the work they did isn't valuable, but the work any other member does is valuable too. There will never be enough ego stroking for you guys.
I really don't think there's any former staff favoritism going on. A lot of the former staff here are treated like regular members really. You're free to prove me wrong though, and if that's really the case then yeah it should stop.
As for the threads that get make when a staff member leaves, it's something done out of respect. Like even if the staff member in question wasn't the best staff ever, they still did valuable work and they deserve a good send off for that. I don't think most people who respond to those threads aren't really crying over a certain staff member leaving anyway, as much as that might seem to be the case.
(08-04-2019, 08:35 PM)Mario Wrote: Stir has put countless hours of work into providing feedback to improve this community. He may not always approach things in the way you'd prefer, but if you're not able to put yourself in his shoes, then I don't think you really respect either the role you have as staff or the role members have as the community. Frustration dealing with staff making bad and harmful decisions is going to be natural- even if you don't see such decisions that way you need to understand that perspectives other than your own exist. It makes it feel like you guys don't value feedback. "Without this faith in people, dialogue is a farce which inevitably degenerates into paternalistic manipulation." - Paulo Freire, Pedagogy of the Oppressed.
Stir gave feedback for the community, just like most other users here. Even if he was the only one giving feedback, this wouldn't mean that he would deserve special treatment from the staff. This has nothing to do with us not valuing feedback though, we do. If we didn't we wouldn't have this feedback forum, and we wouldn't try to respond every single thread made here. Same applies to the Discord. If it wasn't for the feedback the community had given us the site wouldn't have many of the features it had now, and we would be stuck with some outdated mentality from previous staff times.
(08-04-2019, 08:35 PM)Mario Wrote: The community is essential to MFGG and too often it feels like the community's needs and input are shunned or unwanted. I honestly believe it's the staff that has been keeping MFGG back because of this attitude- it's the community that brought back all these old members and reconnecting with each other. Not the site or whatever else. Yet time and time again, community input is downplayed and downplayed and the staff are somehow baffled at frustration in the community. Maybe people would be more willing to speak out about issues they have if it didn't feel like you had to climb a mountain and have to put in a ton of defenses of your own character if you say anything.
How did you come to this conclusion? Again, we are reading all the suggestions, discussing them with you and when there's a conclusion we implement them. What else are we supposed to do?
The same question applies to the rest of the initial post too. You keep complaining that we don't value the community when we are trying our best. What is your solution to this? If you really want to help just give us that. Constant angry complaining about how much we suck without proposing solutions will just make the atmosphere more tense than it needs to be. Like, this is a site about Mario fangames, we don't need to be so angry about all this.
So yeah, I'm open to a calm discussion about this.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - HylianDev - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 08:12 AM)Mario Wrote:(08-05-2019, 06:51 AM)DustinVG Wrote: I don't think portraying these actions as merely the result of a grudge makes a lot of sense given that the lineup of staff is almost entirely different than what it was 6 months ago. Unless one means to imply that we “passed on†the grudge or that it's just something inherent in the staff position.I apologize if you're reading it as me making it out to be about a grudge. That is not the case.
so this is probably gonna be really controversial, and it may never be perceived as helpful, but I strongly feel it will be despite that.
calling it a grudge might not be far off. and I'll take all the blame if necessary; in my time as modmin I've enabled it as much as anyone else for sure. heck, I was the catalyst for The Lockening. I find it honest to characterize some staff actions & attitudes as simply wanting Stir gone. Putting aside any thoughts about whether this is right or wrong, it became more of a game of citing Stir posts and thinking "what can we do about this?" I've said multiple times "why haven't we gotten rid of him yet". I remember proposing something along the lines of: "let's tell him he's on thin ice. then let's totally leave him alone, not get into arguments etc, and as soon as he inevitably does something where he's in the wrong and we aren't, let's perma ban him." that's a grudge wrapped in authority; authority might be necessary, and regardless of whether that was a good or bad idea, that's what it was. he wasn't supremely destructive to the site, he was destructive to the staff.
on stir, and on the sig thing: my position is morphing. I wasn't in the convo when this happened, and I'm not a mod anymore, but I think if we're going to year-ban someone for a myriad of offenses, it's time to break out all of these offenses and give them an honest look under the microscope. not just that, but also the circumstances. how was the staff doing? are we in the wrong in any way, and more importantly, was he reacting to that? it's so easy to hold users accountable, but staff can sometimes get away with some pretty crazy stuff & the other staff will defend them. I do look back on some of the things the users have complained about and I truly think that they were "wrong" about it. it's hard for lots of people to be wrong that something is wrong, but specific criticisms have been in accurate. but that never happens unless there's dissatisfaction.
this isn't a productive culture we have.
on the subject of the sig: it was definitely a shithead move, and I'm annoyed that stir did it. but my above rant is about the total ineffectiveness & self-defeating methods that the staff (largely including me) have. honestly, idk what correlation you could find exactly but our biggest problems happened or began while I was staff, so don't think of me as criticizing all my friends, I like you guys a whole lot! but we were really bad at this, and the staff culture that has followed mfgg for years is to blame.
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - GothGirlGangBlasterMaster - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 09:34 AM)Evil Yoshi Toes Wrote: I can't just reverse the decision
that's ok forum software is confusing
make me admin for a couple minutes and i'll do it
RE: Unban Stir & Lighten Up & Appreciate the Community More - Mors - 08-05-2019
(08-05-2019, 01:07 PM)HylianDev Wrote: calling it a grudge might not be far off. and I'll take all the blame if necessary; in my time as modmin I've enabled it as much as anyone else for sure. heck, I was the catalyst for The Lockening. I find it honest to characterize some staff actions & attitudes as simply wanting Stir gone. Putting aside any thoughts about whether this is right or wrong, it became more of a game of citing Stir posts and thinking "what can we do about this?" I've said multiple times "why haven't we gotten rid of him yet". I remember proposing something along the lines of: "let's tell him he's on thin ice. then let's totally leave him alone, not get into arguments etc, and as soon as he inevitably does something where he's in the wrong and we aren't, let's perma ban him." that's a grudge wrapped in authority; authority might be necessary, and regardless of whether that was a good or bad idea, that's what it was. he wasn't supremely destructive to the site, he was destructive to the staff.I need to clarify that while he was destructive to the staff, as Dustin said it was the former staff who already left. I'm pretty sure none of the current forum staff hold any grudges towards Stir in the same way or think with the same mindset, and the current ban of Stir is unrelated to that.
I mean I will admit, I was expecting Stir to break a rule again, but I never had the mindset of "let's trap Stir into a corner" or was looking forward to that.