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+--- Thread: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls (/showthread.php?tid=430)
You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - BMatSantos - 01-31-2018
I felt like bringing this up after playing Mario Flashback, and a lot of new programmers might have this habit too.
You see, some laptops have a strange limitation between X, Z and three of the arrow keys. When you hold down both Z and X, you can press nothing but the Left arrow. Furthermore, if you hold an arrow and either Z or X, you can't press the remaining letter. Because of this lock, the most common consequence is that you're not able to jump while running to the right.
This is a big problem for platforming, since most of the time, you need a running start to jump through a gap, from left to right. When your only options are Z and X, you can't help but fail the jump and either get hurt by an enemy below or die into the bottomless pit. Eventually, the player gets fed up with it and gives up on the game.
There's always the solution to let the player change controls, but for those who don't want that, I think this could be resolved letting a one-key gap and let C for jumping and Z for running.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - VinnyVideo - 01-31-2018
When I make games, I usually map Z-X-C to Shift, Ctrl, and Spacebar so players have a choice of control schemes to use. Adjustable controls are even better.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Mors - 01-31-2018
I'd go a bit further than that, just add customizable controls. Everyone has their own preference when it comes to keys and not every setup works on every computer. Layouts like Z + X and A + S don't work on certain keyboards because of either different keyboard layouts or what BM said. And Shift triggers sticky keys on some computers, a lot of people are dumb enough to be unable to disable that. People also seem to hate that Shift+ Control configuration for some reason, I got a lot of complaints on the first engine test so I switched to Z + X and now I'm getting complaints about that as well lol
So the best solution is really just adding customizable controls. The system is there for Flashback but since the UI is not done yet I had to stick with a premade layout.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Yoshin - 01-31-2018
Defaults matter.
It doesn't matter how customizable your program/game/etc is, if the defaults are a hassle to some then they'll quite simply not use it. Take GiMP for example: it is an extremely powerful photo manipulation tool but the default settings turn people off enough to use Photoshop, which has quite a hefty pricetag whereas GiMP is 100% free.
I have all my stuff set to use A and X for controls, which feels a lot better on the hand then having the fingers right next to each other.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Shadow Administrator Drei - 01-31-2018
What you're looking for, term-wise, is ghosting/jamming. Keyboards usually don't have their keys as individual electrical switches, but instead groups that, when n within the same group are pressed, cause a short and a report of a non-pressed key. This has been "fixed" by most keyboards just reporting nothing when this is detected. It is on a cheap keyboard - and sometimes solvable by modifying the HID settings - that this happens. The thing is, it is a super common money-saving carry-over in designs that even moderate cost keyboards have this issue. You can never know how every possible keyboard is going to work; however, so it isn't something you can solve except by good practices. You should try to implement forcing the setup of defaults on first launch or a quick swap available to a more varied option on top of allowing the customizing of the hotkeys.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Mors - 01-31-2018
(01-31-2018, 03:01 PM)Yoshin Wrote: Defaults matter.I didn't say that they didn't, and the problem isn't Z and X being bad. They are pretty much considered the standard at this point. The problem is them not working on all keyboards which can be said for pretty much all other layouts, including A and X, and the only real solution is allowing people to change their controls. There's really no point of changing something people are familiar with if it's not going to really fix anything.
It doesn't matter how customizable your program/game/etc is, if the defaults are a hassle to some then they'll quite simply not use it. Take GiMP for example: it is an extremely powerful photo manipulation tool but the default settings turn people off enough to use Photoshop, which has quite a hefty pricetag whereas GiMP is 100% free.
I have all my stuff set to use A and X for controls, which feels a lot better on the hand then having the fingers right next to each other.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - darkblueyoshi - 01-31-2018
You wouldn't want Shift as a key either. In the default configuration of Windows, pressing that key enough times will prompt for sticky keys.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - PixelatedIvan - 01-31-2018
Most games also have Control + Shift as an option, I use those, or just use a gamepad.
Also that is why it will not let me jump in a lot of games lmao
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Vitiman - 01-31-2018
Defaults absolutely do not matter. I've said this for years: if you're too lazy to change the default controls to literally anything that would be preferable to you and instead you'd rather use even more of your time to complain about it, then I'd rather you not play my game.
Configurable controls are the way to go.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Syaxamaphone - 02-01-2018
(01-31-2018, 09:07 PM)Vitiman Wrote: Defaults absolutely do not matter.
You should absolutely put thought into your default controls. OP is bringing up great points and its something you really need to think about as a developer.
A lot of potential players may not even attempt to change their controls, trusting that the default settings are optimized and ideal for the game (they were chosen with the game in mind after all). Customization for controls should exist as a fallback in case that for whatever reason the default doesn't work for a player, but your default should still be put together keeping most players in mind.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Vitiman - 02-01-2018
(02-01-2018, 01:00 PM)Syaxamaphone Wrote:I should clarify that I absolutely do appreciate people who play my games and who give feedback and criticism, and that I do enjoy making things that people like to play. It's just I find this to be a non-issue if the controls are customizable, is all.(01-31-2018, 09:07 PM)Vitiman Wrote: Defaults absolutely do not matter.
You should absolutely put thought into your default controls. OP is bringing up great points and its something you really need to think about as a developer.
A lot of potential players may not even attempt to change their controls, trusting that the default settings are optimized and ideal for the game (they were chosen with the game in mind after all). Customization for controls should exist as a fallback in case that for whatever reason the default doesn't work for a player, but your default should still be put together keeping most players in mind.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Zero Kirby - 02-01-2018
(01-31-2018, 03:01 PM)Yoshin Wrote: I have all my stuff set to use A and X for controls, which feels a lot better on the hand then having the fingers right next to each other.
I've never really considered this. I'll have to try it out myself one of these days to see how that feels.
ahem Anyway, I'll chime in and say that both customizable controls and a decent default set matter. A good, sensible default that works for 90% of users is pretty important. It makes it way easier for people to just jump into the game. But there's that 10% who have something else going on, so providing the option to change the controls to suit their unique needs is important!
For example, in my game, I've provided eight different default keyboard layouts: a QWERTY/QWERTZ one, an AZERTY one, a Dvorak one, and a Colemak one. And then an "inverted" format for each that uses a WASD-style layout. But there's still the option to set each button to whatever key you want.
The most important thing is providing options.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - OssieTheOstrich - 02-02-2018
Z and X are NES'ish like controls.
For a SNES/DS, X is for Jumping, S is for Running, and Z is for either Jumping or Spin Jumping (Depending if spin jumps are in the game).
Or we could use the Spacebar?
ehh....?
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Hiro-sofT - 02-02-2018
There is another problem why people need to reconsider using Z as one of their buttons for their game. The keyboard layout in Germany (don't know if this counts for other european lands too) has the Y swapped with the Z, making the Z being placed somewhat in the middle, upper section of the keyboard, while the X is still in the lower left corner. A lot of games are awkward to play for me and my fellow Germans, which is why I have to use a controller like 80% of the time (unless it has a custom key binding function, that lets me set the keys myself).
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - VinnyVideo - 02-02-2018
@darkblueyoshi If you play games made in GM or Clickteam games, you'll quickly learn how to disable StickyKeys. But that brings us to my next point:
@Yoshin @Syaxamaphone I totally agree - default controls matter. Actually, when it comes to UI/UX in general, always consider defaults and make sure they work for the majority of users. Many people won't bother to change the default controls (or other default settings), and many people might not even know how.
@Hiro-sofT This is another good point - the Z-X control scheme doesn't work well with German keyboards. The X-C or A-S configurations work a lot better for German keyboards, but they still might not work with Dvorak or other alternative keyboards.
In short, customizable control schemes are very nice to have. If you can't figure out how to make a system, be sure to map important controls (like jumping and running/shooting) to multiple keys.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - AndrewPixel - 02-13-2018
The best thing to do is allow the player to set the controls, so there aren't problems. If not possible, my favourite controls are Z-X-Arrow keys.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - YoshisIsland3 - 02-13-2018
Mine are Z and X too. But yeah, like Andrew said, let them set the controls.
RE: You guys should reconsider using Z and X for default controls - Guinea - 03-04-2018
My favorite defaults are D and F, since they're the same on most (all?) keyboards, and they have the little ridge on the F so you have an easier time finding them (same as if you're typing).
One thing I usually do when I have non-customizable controls (e.g. because I'm in a hurry for a game jam), is to make it like fire1 is between two alternatives for fire2, so you can at least choose the left-to-right order without going to a menu. Example for an American keyboard: Z and C -> fire2, X -> fire1.