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+--- Thread: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG (/showthread.php?tid=898)
The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Willsaber - 05-16-2018
Over the past two years, there have been many community-driven attempts to reform this site. Members have expressed concerns regarding the moderation, quality control, advertising, interface design, community zeitgeist, and broader site exposure... all in an effort to improve Mario Fan Games Galaxy in some way. I am not writing one of those threads. I am unveiling the ugly part of MFGG. The part that nobody noticed, or everybody ignored. The part that is too fundamental to truly fix, because doing so would, in many cases, be unfair, unreasonable, or otherwise unethical. An observant member of this community cannot blame any part of the administration or community for this platform's gradual decline in activity, because doing so misses the greater issues that keep cycling members out, and prevent fresh blood from cycling in.
Mario Fan Games Galaxy does not attract the people it needs to solve its underlying problems (at least not in sufficient volume), and so long as it continues being MFGG, it never will. Because MFGG is a fangaming community, the only developers it attracts are fangamers -- and as somebody who has spent a great amount of time exploring a diverse range of gaming communities, I can confidently assert that fangame developers are just about the worst breed of gamedevs out there.
Typical game designers' creative process can be abstracted into two steps:
1) They consider what ideas they wish to express through their design.
2) They consider how they can efficiently construct a game design to propagate those ideas.
Fangamers, on the other hand, usually think with this logic:
1) They consider what ideas they wish to express through their design.
2) They consider how they can express those ideas within the design constraints of their source material.
... because fangamers are extremely derivative. There are some exceptions (@SMBMaster99 is a blessing to Pokemon), but the vast majority are interested only in producing more of Mario. More of Pokemon. More of Zelda. They don't want to utilize our lovely interactive medium to express any design remarkably individual. They just want to use Super Mario Bros. as a platform to express their narrative ideas, or their aesthetic ideas, or occasionally their conventionally subversive ideas. Plenty of cynical critics complain that fangames are derivative in order to make game development easier for noobs, but I personally see value in the "Yes, AND" mentality.
One of MFGG's most notable productions is Super Mario Bros. Dimensions, by LangtonLion64. This game is an evolutionary innovation of Super Mario Bros. 3, and while far from an excellent game, it exemplifies the potential that fangaming can contribute to the greater gaming fandom. But that's not enough for most people. Most game developers with substantial ambition don't want to improve what they've already played, they want to aggregate their own creative ideas and coalesce something inherently more novel than the individual components. Fangamers at large do not -- and I am convinced will never -- display this mentality.
So, no matter how much exposure MFGG gets to the greater Nintendo and gaming fandoms, the majority of this community's target demographic (game developers) will find themselves dissuaded by their more derivative peers in most fangaming communities.
Fanfiction communities circumvent this issue almost entirely. Some people (those who know nothing) complain that fanfiction is similarly derivative, but it's derivative in a completely different way. Fanfiction holds the capacity to develop and subvert existing ideas, much like fangaming, but without copying the style of its source material. Super Mario Bros. Dimensions is not only about Mario, but it also looks and feels almost exactly like Super Mario Bros. 3. Metropolitan Man, despite being about Super Man, looks and feels wholly original. Most fanfiction is derived from source material beyond literature, so the medium fanfiction necessitates that the artist craft their own literary style. A My Little Pony fanfiction will never feel quite the same as Friendship is Magic, even when both pertain to the same subject. However, a Mario fangame of substantial scope on MFGG always feels very similar to Mario.
This community seems only proficient in finishing ambitious projects when they're 2D sidescrolling platformers with an emphasis on jumping to overcome enemies: Abducted Toad, Midas Machine, Psycho Waluigi, Toadette Strikes, Super Mario Bros. Dimensions, etc. Most of those are fine games, but they're all essentially Mario in terms of aesthetic and game design. There are deviations, but none too innovative ever come into fruition. And this community of fangamers is doing nothing to disincentivize itself. And it never will, because it sees no reason to challenge itself.
Who is MFGG currently comprised of? Which active members are influencing the whole? Certainly not I. Certainly no longer Mit, or Syaxamaphone, or Mors, or Neweegee, or Random.Nick... because all of us have better things going on. I don't know all of those people I listed very well, but I've conversed with each of them at least enough to know they all desire a meaningful role in the indie gaming industry. Because we have that ambition, we work towards it, and quickly mature beyond the rest of MFGG... and leave for greener and more challenging pastures. I'm only 18 years old, but nearly every game project I've worked on the past two years has been relatively original for this platform (the exception being Everything Mario Maker). My current focus, that I spend no less than 5 hours each day working on, is incomparably more innovative than what MFGG has so far produced (not that it's a particularly high bar).
Nobody has yet managed to be a professional fangame developer. UndyingNephalim is probably the closest, but even his Patreon is merely a secondary source of income. Yes, he is close to getting fangaming to be a full-time job, but he's definitely not there yet.
You look at other fanwork disciplines such as fanfiction or fanmusic. If you have a diverse range of interests (which many MFGGers sadly lack), then you can probably think of at least a handful of fan artists earning living wages from their content creation. Matthew Gafford's literal full time job is producing A Fox in Space, and fandom-based YouTubers like DigiBro earn living wages just by discussing fandom regularly. All of these artists sustain themselves by producing largely original fanwork, but fangaming won't. Fangaming has no ambition, because nobody who makes fangames has ambition.
I'm refraining from disparaging any specific users in this thread, but please consider: what have active MFGGers really accomplished in the past 365 days? How many of them want to be professional game developers? How many of them have produced games remarkable by the standards of broader communities? If you ask me: zero. Spend a little time experiencing the zeitgeist of The Indie Game Source, and try disagreeing with me. Four years ago, MFGG challenged me -- as a child -- but I don't think even children can still benefit from exposure to this community anymore. Everybody who helped me mature has transcended, and the only remnants I see are those who have so far failed to transcend with them. Inevitably, they will either mature as game developers or just lose interest in their mere hobby altogether.
MFGG just has nothing to offer new community members. Besides what I've already mentioned, modern MFGGers lack the expertise to properly critique others' content, and there aren't enough active members anymore to reliably recruit a team. There's an awesome compilation of graphics resource on the Mainsite, but they are tagged inconsistently, so finding useful assets is tedious. The community resources (members with expertise and an urge to teach) are depleted, and this site will never acquire new ones.
What does this community, which largely forgot how to draw pixel art (everybody with aesthetic expertise already left, except for StrikeForcer), won't encourage innovation (fangamers very rarely do), and fails to consistently produce innovative games offer prospective game developers? If you ask me: nothing.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - HellJumper - 05-16-2018
There's also the fact that a lot of the longtime members here come off as extremely elitist, and kind of arrogant. I'm not going to pretend like I haven't contributed to the ugly side of MFGG, but one of the main reasons I don't take this site that seriously, is because of the community interaction. To me, it's pure cancer. I'm not going to be naming anyone here, because I don't want to start a silly war, but I personally have not had the best experience here. I haven't been here that long, and I'm already seen as this mediocre sprite artist that can't take criticism. Because for some reason, if I don't apply every change to my sprites that is recommended, then I apparently can't take criticism. If I disagree with something someone recommended to me, then apparently I can't take criticism, because the people recommending them to me have been here a lot longer, and apparently know everything about everything. One thing that a lot of people need to understand, is that constructive criticism is there for the artists benefit, not yours. If what you are recommending contradicts the style the artist is trying to go for, then you can't be surprised when the artist doesn't apply whatever modifications you recommend. This is where the elitism stems from, from my experience anyways.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Mario - 05-16-2018
I don't agree. I don't think the goal of everyone here is to be a professional game designer, it's just a little hobby to do things they think would be fun. There's plenty of communities out there geared towards helping people develop better art skills, better music skills, etc. While it would be nice for MFGG to have those things, it's hardly a necessity. The internet's a big place and MFGG is part of it, not separate from it.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Mors - 05-16-2018
For most people making fangames wasn't about fame, money, or having a future as a game developer. It was only about having fun. People made fangames because they wanted to make their own Mario game. A lot of people who made fangames weren't even interested in being game developers. But with the rise of indie game development and stuff like Patreon allowing people to make money via fan content, a lot more people started to see it more like a job than a hobby. People want to make big and epic fangames and earn fame these days. It's literally the exact opposite of what it used to be, and therefore I think it's unfair to expect MFGG (both as a site and as a community) to adapt to these changes that are happening outside this community this fastly. I mean MFGG is having a big problem with attracting new members, so it makes sense that most people here have the old "making fangames for fun" mentality. (And I don't think this is a bad mentality really)
It's also important to remember that people move on eventually, they either lose interest or just become too good to just make fangames for fun. This had always been the case with this site, sure some people stuck around but most active people left at some point due to the reasons I mentioned. It wasn't that noticeable back then as it is now because back then there were people who can replace them, right now there isn't.
I think it's safe to say that you reached the "become too good to just make fangames for fun" point already, but you shouldn't really expect everyone else to also hit that point when different people have different goals and have different expectations from making fangames.
(05-16-2018, 05:50 PM)HellJumper Wrote: There's also the fact that a lot of the longtime members here come off as extremely elitist, and kind of arrogant. I'm not going to pretend like I haven't contributed to the ugly side of MFGG, but one of the main reasons I don't take this site that seriously, is because of the community interaction. To me, it's pure cancer. I'm not going to be naming anyone here, because I don't want to start a silly war, but I personally have not had the best experience here. I haven't been here that long, and I'm already seen as this mediocre sprite artist that can't take criticism. Because for some reason, if I don't apply every change to my sprites that is recommended, then I apparently can't take criticism. If I disagree with something someone recommended to me, then apparently I can't take criticism, because the people recommending them to me have been here a lot longer, and apparently know everything about everything. One thing that a lot of people need to understand, is that constructive criticism is there for the artists benefit, not yours. If what you are recommending contradicts the style the artist is trying to go for, then you can't be surprised when the artist doesn't apply whatever modifications you recommend. This is where the elitism stems from, from my experience anyways.yes, screw em for giving you feedback and getting annoyed when you completely ignore them with the excuse of "this is my art style". damn, what a bunch of elitists!
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - VinnyVideo - 05-16-2018
People make fangames to pay tribute to (or gently parody) the source material. Many of the best fangames (such as Mushroom Pancakes or Normal Super Mario Bros.) are very creative in that they have unique gameplay mechanics and do things that Nintendo probably wouldn't do with the franchise. However, I won't argue that they're not derivative - they're fangames, and fangames are, by their very nature, derivative. If you're working on a game that uses extremely innovative gameplay elements, you're probably going to make an indie game so you don't feel limited by the boundaries of the source material, and so you can monetize your work.
Many professional game developers have gotten their start by making and sharing games on MFGG. Even if you feel like you've "graduated" from making fangames, you're more than welcome to use the MFGG forums to share whatever creative projects you're making. (Although if you don't feel any affinity for the MFGG community, you might be better off leaving and finding someplace that's better aligned with your current interests and attitudes.)
Basically, fangames work best when they're fun, simple, and creative - when they pay tribute to the source material while expanding its boundaries.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - HellJumper - 05-16-2018
I
(05-16-2018, 06:27 PM)Mors Wrote: yes, screw em for giving you feedback and getting annoyed when you completely ignore them with the excuse of "this is my art style". damn, what a bunch of elitists!It IS my art style, and if the changes you recommend fundamentally change it, then yes, I am going to keep it the way it is. Oh, but you know better.
And no, I do NOT ignore the criticism I get. I at least consider it and test it out to see if it works.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Willsaber - 05-16-2018
(05-16-2018, 06:44 PM)VinnyVideo Wrote: People make fangames to pay tribute to (or gently parody) the source material. Many of the best fangames (such as Mushroom Pancakes or Normal Super Mario Bros.) are very creative in that they have unique gameplay mechanics and do things that Nintendo probably wouldn't do with the franchise. However, I won't argue that they're not derivative - they're fangames, and fangames are, by their very nature, derivative. If you're working on a game that uses extremely innovative gameplay elements, you're probably going to make an indie game so you don't feel limited by the boundaries of the source material, and so you can monetize your work.To be clear, the "problem" I referred to in the title of this thread isn't that mentality itself, but rather the effect that mentality is having on site activity. The nature of this community is leading to a gradual decline in active members, and eventually, this community will likely subsist on a skeleton crew of oldbies and then quietly die altogether.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Kirby's Adventure - 05-16-2018
https://mfgg.net/index.php?act=resdb¶m=02&c=2&id=34329
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Willsaber - 05-16-2018
(05-16-2018, 06:50 PM)Kirby's Adventure Wrote: https://mfgg.net/index.php?act=resdb¶m=02&c=2&id=34329
Well, I didn't want to call out specific users or games in a negative light, but...
Communist Mario is a 2D sidescrolling platformer with plain game design even for a Mario fangame, and its only excellent quality is the audio-visual composition (exemplified especially in the awesome opening cutscene). I'm sure Vitiman is capable of applying that skill to a YouTube video or something (I've even seen her do that quite well) but all of her video games are unimpressive in terms of technical design.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Vitiman - 05-16-2018
The actual problem with MFGG is that you think everybody has the same goals as you when they make a fangame, when some people (such as myself) make them for fun.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Kritter - 05-16-2018
It's normal that people want to make more of the same kind of 2D Mario games that they grew up with or love, that's what we probably all started out doing and there's nothing wrong with that. How many people didn't have what they considered the best idea for a 2D Mario game at some point. I know I thought my old Luigi Quest fangame was the greatest idea ever back in the day. I never finished making it but the journey was some of the most fun I've had making fangames.
I think most of us who enjoyed doing that will eventually want to move onto making original titles and that's fine, but MFGG provides a resource for people to learn how to make relatively simple fangames using assets and ideas that already exist and that's no different to me than copying a picture to learn how to draw or editing a sprite to learn how pixel art works. You take those skills and apply them to new things later in life.
MFGG isn't just about fangames though, it's a community for Mario / Nintendo fans and a place to talk about those things with like-minded people. I've always said people come for the fangames and stay for the community. It might not have the same amount of users that it once did but that hasn't changed the point of the community we have here.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - The Dark Warrior - 05-16-2018
(05-16-2018, 06:46 PM)HellJumper Wrote: I(05-16-2018, 06:27 PM)Mors Wrote: yes, screw em for giving you feedback and getting annoyed when you completely ignore them with the excuse of "this is my art style". damn, what a bunch of elitists!It IS my art style, and if the changes you recommend fundamentally change it, then yes, I am going to keep it the way it is. Oh, but you know better.
And no, I do NOT ignore the criticism I get. I at least consider it and test it out to see if it works.
You may not ignore criticism but you sure do act like the very people you rail against which is why people have an uphill battle on talking to you lol.
Anyways, Im more on the opinion that the current set of people in Mario fangaming since the Split happened...is on a decline, moving on to bigger things such as making an indie or just quit altogether because of shifting interests, as they age out of the fangaming field, as with the thousands of members whom MFGG had in the past pre-split already did moved on. That the cycle may very well continue with a new set of people coming in, with enthusiasm to come in to make Mario fangames, being the ones to make a bigger difference while the older grow cynical at the kinds of fangames out there that can be completed and fun to play, which eventually they do move on to bigger things. I personally, am of the people cynical of the games being made now because they usually are just boring.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Mario - 05-16-2018
Another note: I don't think it'd be ideal if MFGG DID become a one-stop-shop for anything to do with game development- for both MFGG and its visitors. A big part of learning things on your own is learning to research and gather information and skills from all over and it'd be doing visitors a disservice to try and cover everything here- especially the things MFGG is less well-equipped to handle.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - DustinVG - 05-16-2018
Honestly, I'm just gonna say that this is a rather long post and I kinda lost track of what point it was you were trying to make with it, so I'm not gonna make any attempt to argue with it, either.
However, when it comes to fangame motivation, I did initially just want to make my own Mario. Nowadays, my motivation for Super Ancient Keys is "dang, wouldn't that be really freakin' rad". Neweegee is helping work on that, by the by.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - The Dark Warrior - 05-16-2018
(05-16-2018, 06:44 PM)VinnyVideo Wrote: People make fangames to pay tribute to (or gently parody) the source material. Many of the best fangames (such as Mushroom Pancakes or Normal Super Mario Bros.) are very creative in that they have unique gameplay mechanics and do things that Nintendo probably wouldn't do with the franchise. However, I won't argue that they're not derivative - they're fangames, and fangames are, by their very nature, derivative. If you're working on a game that uses extremely innovative gameplay elements, you're probably going to make an indie game so you don't feel limited by the boundaries of the source material, and so you can monetize your work.
Many professional game developers have gotten their start by making and sharing games on MFGG. Even if you feel like you've "graduated" from making fangames, you're more than welcome to use the MFGG forums to share whatever creative projects you're making. (Although if you don't feel any affinity for the MFGG community, you might be better off leaving and finding someplace that's better aligned with your current interests and attitudes.)
Basically, fangames work best when they're fun, simple, and creative - when they pay tribute to the source material while expanding its boundaries.
I agree in which fangames inherently are derivative, because you don't own the IP nor that Nintendo granted you permission to make a Mario game or any game they own the rights to.
However, just because you are working on a fangame, doesn't mean one has to be faithful to the established lore and canon of the official series. I could go in and just for example make a fangame where Mario is to be some evil plumber being the protagonist and your job is to traverse 1 single edgy world filled with zombified toads as mooks serving Bowser being the ultimate evil plunging the world into oblivion, in which the lesser evil being Mario must kill him then kidnap Peach just to establish a totalitarian regime that at least defends the world from Bowser, by using guns and shrooms laid about to fight your way into victiory...and people should be encouraged to go out of their comfort zone to be creative with what they want to make, preferably if they know how to, which isnt defined by how faithful they can be to the established canon. The game idea hypothetical I just said is not really a tribute to Nintendo's IP, at least, not in a traditional sense that people think of tributes...its a fan Alternate Universe take of what they want Mario to be and have the ideas to realize it, even though that idea is unpopular purely because all of that is out of character... thats the point. Confinement in this sense is entirely arbitrary for that precise reason meant to restrict people into thinking that they cant really take a character and apply whatever they want to make, consciously. You dont have to make an indie to do just that, because already what was done regarding the ideas, conceptually breaks boundaries and can very well actually break the boundaries if someone can fully realize the hypothetical I just said in this paragraph.
The real issue as why doing out of canon takes of an established IP gets a bad rep is that people are terrible writers who don't even know what they are doing when they want to make their own fangame. Fangames work best by sheer creativity of level design that immerses you into the game world with the stage gimmicks you either use or overcome, and how fun it is to play the game by the gameplay mechanics, not necessarily having to be following the source material all the time.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Friendly Dictator - 05-16-2018
![[Image: all_that_hogwash_by_t_griff23-da2avjs.png]](https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/433795985769103360/446466862042185730/all_that_hogwash_by_t_griff23-da2avjs.png)
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Vitiman - 05-16-2018
Quote:the vast majority are interested only in producing more of Mario. More of Pokemon. More of Zelda. They don't want to utilize our lovely interactive medium to express any design remarkably individual
This is really funny considering you're literally making Mario Maker but for the PC.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Willsaber - 05-16-2018
(05-16-2018, 08:28 PM)Vitiman Wrote:Quote:the vast majority are interested only in producing more of Mario. More of Pokemon. More of Zelda. They don't want to utilize our lovely interactive medium to express any design remarkably individual
This is really funny considering you're literally making Mario Maker but for the PC.
I alluded to this in my thread, wherein cited it as an exception to my generally innovative works. Look at the prototypes I've built over the past two years, and you'll see they are almost all far more unique than Everything Mario Maker -- which, by the way, will tell a meta-narrative by a means which I've never seen in another video game (though I don't doubt there's probably some extremely obscure game that did something similar). It's also my weekend project, not my main game.
But this is also kind of entirely irrelevant and I don't know why you're bringing it up?
(05-16-2018, 08:11 PM)Dustinvgmaster Wrote: However, when it comes to fangame motivation, I did initially just want to make my own Mario. Nowadays, my motivation for Super Ancient Keys is "dang, wouldn't that be really freakin' rad". Neweegee is helping work on that, by the by.
My post deliberately exempted unfinished games in paragraph 9, because there are a number of interesting ones imo. Yours, for instance, can't really be compared to Super Mario by any means other than aesthetic and being part of the broad 2D sidescrolling platformer genre. I don't doubt your dedication to its completion, but when it's done, it will be an outlier because the vast majority of interesting fangames of substantial scope developed by active MFGGers are abandonware.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - HellJumper - 05-16-2018
(05-16-2018, 08:11 PM)Dustinvgmaster Wrote: Honestly, I'm just gonna say that this is a rather long post and I kinda lost track of what point it was you were trying to make with it, so I'm not gonna make any attempt to argue with it, either.
However, when it comes to fangame motivation, I did initially just want to make my own Mario. Nowadays, my motivation for Super Ancient Keys is "dang, wouldn't that be really freakin' rad". Neweegee is helping work on that, by the by.
Neweegee's a cool dude. He helps me with my sprites by giving constructive feedback. One of the few people in this community that I have lots of respect for.
RE: The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG - Catonator - 05-17-2018
(05-16-2018, 10:15 PM)HellJumper Wrote: Neweegee's a cool dude. He helps me with my sprites by giving constructive feedback. One of the few people in this community that I have lots of respect for.
You do realize that a lot of people give you constructive criticism, but you're just too stubborn to listen to it without getting angry and stomping off? Also nice pointless post.
Fangaming is inherently derivative, but I don't think there's any real simple solution to that issue. Subverting gameplay expectations is indeed one thing, but there's something els you touched in your post as well: once they come up with an interesting concept, people are more inclined to turn it into their own original game rather then keep it as a Mario fangame. There's really just no reason to waste innovation on a game that's already teetering above the dark pits of DMCA.
That's also why the idea of a professional fangame developer is unappealing. Fangames are a legal gray area, so it's not a good idea to rely on them as your main source of income since that could be taken away at any point. Other mediums such as music or art are better protected against this, fangames are more problematic.