Favorite iteration of Clickteam?

[Q-Nova]

Several months ago, I've asked MFGGers what their favorite version of GameMaker is with a poll, and now I got the idea to make a similar poll for Clickteam's game-making products!

I decided to merge CNC with TGF and MMF2 with TGF2, since for each group the two products seem pretty similar except one has more features, and both were supported in the same time. That's why I decided to say "iteration" rather than "version" or "product" (the latter of which would imply the inclusion of Install Maker/Creator) in the topic title and poll question.

I think I'll go with TGF/CNC, with TGF particularly in mind since that's the one I spent the most time with by far. I played around with TGF2 for a bit over a decade ago, and just recently, I downloaded KNP and looked into it for a bit, just to see what it's like. I like how TGF manages to be simple, but fairly robust and capable of doing many things. It may be not as good as newer game creation tools, but there's a charm to TGF that I quite enjoy. I also quite like a lot of the old games that were created with TGF/CNC, that era had a certain feel that was pretty charming! KNP also had some charming games made with it! Generally speaking, while they may seem outdated and perhaps clunky, there's something special about the era of Clickteam games that were made before GameMaker became the main choice for making games in around the mid-2000s (old GameMaker games also had a cute charm, though).

[Vitiman]

Multimedia Fusion 1.5 will always hold a special place in my heart. It felt like the final revision to the TGF version of the program, and it's the one I have the absolute most nostalgia for. Sure, maybe MMF2 and all that afterward could technically do more, and maybe MMF1.5 still had some unfortunate bugs and quirks held over from past versions (i.e. the sound bug could still rear its ugly head, and it's capped at 50 FPS I believe for some ungodly reason) but man... if you want an uncompromised-yet-authentic retro Clickteam experience, it's genuinely hard to beat MMF1.5

This could of course also be coming entirely from my nostalgia for it. My grandma got me a copy of MMF1.5 for my birthday when I couldn't have been any older than 6 (might have even been 5!) because of my early early days browsing the very first incarnation of MFGG. My fiddling around with Klik libraries and tutorials and even games that weren't edit-protected allowed me to figure out how Clickteam events worked and eventually attain a quasi-elevated status with using it. I'm still not especially great at it, but the last 20 years have allowed me to know a great deal about how to best take advantage of it. None of that would have been possible if I didn't use 1.5 for nearly a decade.

That was my work horse. Sure, basically none of the stuff on the main site that I released was actually made in it. But I didn't start actually uploading games consistently until after I had switched over to 2 (and later 2.5), so that's more to do with obsolescence than anything. 1.5, if you can find a copy of it floating around still, is to this day a fairly competent piece of software. Very fun to play around it! Sure, maybe it isn't the absolute time capsule that TGF or Klik 'n' Play are, but man... and I mean, come on! It's what Thingio Side A was made in! It's what Toad Strikes Back was made in! Super Mario Epic 2! That's all Multimedia Fusion 1.5, baby. MFGG's first golden age was almost entirely MMF1.5. Even some of you Game Maker users have to hold it in respect for that alone. I feel the same way about Game Maker 8 for the era of MFGG that followed right after. It was the tool of choice for a lot of talent! You gotta respect that, man.

[Q-Nova]

@Vitiman Great post! I always wondered what MMF1.5 was like, since it's one of the few Clickteam products unavailable on their website (they only have update patches). It's very cool that you got it from your grandmother! Toad Strikes Back was actually the first thing that came to my mind when you said MMF1.5! According to a post @Thunder Dragon made back in the phpBB era, though, it seems that Toad Strikes Back was actually made in The Games Factory for the most part and then finished with MMF:

Haha, not that I'm one to talk, though. I had been using what was essentially a version of The Games Factory for 13 years before switching over to MMF2 -- I had used MMF1.5 strictly for finishing touches since its user interface was pretty awful compared to the older program. I stuck with MMF2 for about 4 years before switching to CF2.5 just this year.

Given the date of TD's post (2015), it seems that Psycho Waluigi might've also been made in TGF (or Click & Create if you go by the wiki article), with MMF2 used for finishing touches. I'm not sure how drastic these finishing touches are, but nevertheless it blows my mind to think that something like Toad Strikes Back or Psycho Waluigi could be created in TGF of all things!

Also, Super Mario Epic 2 was actually made with Click & Create, since it comes with a ".cca" file, while MMF1.5 games don't come with any files aside from the ".exe" one. Were you thinking of Super Mario Epic 3, perhaps? Also, if we're talking about MMF1.5 classics, don't forget about Super Mario: Blue Twilight DX! That's the only MFGG game that got featured on TV!

I always had the impression that while MMF1.5 was used for some games and how-tos, Toad Strikes Back being the most notable one by far, it wasn't used as much as its predecessors nor its successors, giving it the "middle child syndrome". I think some of that came from how TGF2 and MMF2 came out in 2006, the year the current version of the MFGG mainsite launched, while up until then TGF and CNC were still pretty popular. Thinking back, however, I might've been wrong, since for Clickteam it looks like people tend to use products that have been out for more than a few years. Like, TGF and CNC came out in 1996, and yet were some of the most widely-used programs for game-making in the early 2000s. Maybe I haven't played enough games from the mid-2000s to really notice what was popular at the time, which you seem to know better than me since you were there to witness those games when they were brand new. I know that most of the old fangames I played were made with KNP, TGF, and CNC, with a MMF1.5-made game being a rare occasion. (I actually haven't played Blue Twilight yet, I only know that it's made with MMF1.5 thanks to MFGG Wiki.)

Speaking of MMF1.5, I really like the splash image they used:



It looks so cool and futuristic! I especially like the two hands with the lightning, it really makes me think that using MMF1.5 would be like being a crazy Frankenstien-type scientist that's cooking up some otherworldly voodoo magic!

Sometimes, I've considered using TGF to make some "serious" games (by serious, I mean something that isn't just me goofing off and experimenting with no actual game in mind), since I like the feel of it and how different it is from GameMaker, but that nasty sound glitch is kind of off-putting, to a point where I wonder if it's really worth it when I can just make such games with GameMaker and not get any tech-related complaints from people running them (I mean, how many of them are going to bother with changing a processor setting to prevent the sound glitch?). Maybe someday I should download the free version of MMF2/TGF2/CF2.5 and see what it's like. I've sometimes wondered how different the newer versions are anyway.

By the way, I sent you a PM a while ago, Vitiman. I think you'll really like it!

Quillax Ship - Where you can download all of my cool, keen mods and super-marvelous fangames!

[Vitiman]

So... the thing with Click & Create/MMF Express is that it never received a ton of circulation. I remember back when Clickteam products were still widely used, using CNC was very uncommon on the grounds that not many people even owned it.

The '.cca' file observation is an astute one! A good eye, in fact. Indeed, MMF1.5 was the first version of a Clickteam product that I know of that did not require the user to export their finished application with a protected source to function properly. Could all be contained in the .exe! However... the thing of it is, that alone is not proof that a game was made in CNC. MMF1.5 actually still used .cca files, and I would need to dig deeper to find absolute proof of what a game was compiled with (which I'm actively trying to do), it's not an unreasonable assumption that a naive teenager in 2004 who just migrated from TGF to MMF1.5 might still think he'd need to keep a copy of the source with the game for it to still work. That was always what I thought. Or maybe MMF1.5 has a toggleable compile option for it to behave the way TGF did. I forgot, to be honest. Need to look more into it.

Lastly, while I would certainly not be one to refute the creator of a game, Thunder Dragon had definitely released demos prior to TSB's final release that were compiled in MMF1.5, because they were standalone executable files with no protected sources in the directory! Perhaps their memory is just being fuzzy. I don't deny they mostly made the game in TGF though, that seems plausible enough. But I don't think it was the last-minute decision they paint it as, namely since a lot of the game's fancy features could only have been done with MMF1.5 and some of its exclusive extensions.

[Q-Nova]

So... the thing with Click & Create/MMF Express is that it never received a ton of circulation. I remember back when Clickteam products were still widely used, using CNC was very uncommon on the grounds that not many people even owned it.

Huh, really? Of all the TGF/CNC games, how-tos, and libs I have in my computer, I'm pretty sure about half of them were made with CNC. Then again, I just skimmed through the TGF/CNC section of Kliktopia (large website containing over 3,500 oldschool Klik games), and it seems like most of those are made with TGF, so I see your point. It would make sense anyway, since CNC had a much more limited means of distribution than TGF (the former could only be obtained through the Clickteam website, while the latter comes in discs that seem to be sold in retail stores, and this was long before online shopping became mainstream).

The '.cca' file observation is an astute one! A good eye, in fact. Indeed, MMF1.5 was the first version of a Clickteam product that I know of that did not require the user to export their finished application with a protected source to function properly. Could all be contained in the .exe! However... the thing of it is, that alone is not proof that a game was made in CNC. MMF1.5 actually still used .cca files, and I would need to dig deeper to find absolute proof of what a game was compiled with (which I'm actively trying to do), it's not an unreasonable assumption that a naive teenager in 2004 who just migrated from TGF to MMF1.5 might still think he'd need to keep a copy of the source with the game for it to still work. That was always what I thought. Or maybe MMF1.5 has a toggleable compile option for it to behave the way TGF did. I forgot, to be honest. Need to look more into it.

Yeah, I just learned that MMF1.5 also used .cca files. However, another way to find proof of what Clickteam program the game was compiled with is to look at the file description of the .exe. For example, the file description for Super Mario Epic 2's .exe is "Multimedia Fusion Express Stand Alone Application". Though, I don't know if the file description can be manipulated, at least for the time period and tools available.

Lastly, while I would certainly not be one to refute the creator of a game, Thunder Dragon had definitely released demos prior to TSB's final release that were compiled in MMF1.5, because they were standalone executable files with no protected sources in the directory! Perhaps their memory is just being fuzzy. I don't deny they mostly made the game in TGF though, that seems plausible enough. But I don't think it was the last-minute decision they paint it as, namely since a lot of the game's fancy features could only have been done with MMF1.5 and some of its exclusive extensions.

I know the TSB demo (Demo V4) available on the main site is made with MMF1.5. The preceding demo (Demo V3), however, is made with CNC and yet seems pretty similar to the final version from what I can tell, aside from the absolutely horrendous, nearly nausea-inducing camera (glad the camera got revamped in later revisions). I haven't fully played through Demo V3, though, just a few levels. Like I said earlier, though, I have no idea to what degree Thunder Dragon meant by "finishing touches", so for all we know, it probably took weeks, if not months to do them. Out of curiosity, what are those "fancy features" you hinted at? All I can really think of is the water's reflection effect in the World 3 hub, and maybe the overlay effect in the first room of World 7's secret level.

Also, I sent you another PM. Hopefully we can figure out the problem behind these broken PM notifications! I've been getting notifications just fine these days...

Quillax Ship - Where you can download all of my cool, keen mods and super-marvelous fangames!

[Vitiman]

Huh, really? Of all the TGF/CNC games, how-tos, and libs I have in my computer, I'm pretty sure about half of them were made with CNC. Then again, I just skimmed through the TGF/CNC section of Kliktopia (large website containing over 3,500 oldschool Klik games), and it seems like most of those are made with TGF, so I see your point. It would make sense anyway, since CNC had a much more limited means of distribution than TGF (the former could only be obtained through the Clickteam website, while the latter comes in discs that seem to be sold in retail stores, and this was long before online shopping became mainstream).

People definitely had CNC! But it was not in absolute circulation like TGF was. Since compatibility between the two was generally pretty good, I think most people didn't bother with upgrading to CNC for the time period. Now TGF to MMF1.5... that was more of a justified leap. At least, after a point. Because to your credit, MMF1.5 was also something people didn't bother upgrading to until about 2003-2004. A lot of people still used TGF going into the mid-2000s, if you'll believe it. There's certainly proof of it on MFGG!

Yeah, I just learned that MMF1.5 also used .cca files. However, another way to find proof of what Clickteam program the game was compiled with is to look at the file description of the .exe. For example, the file description for Super Mario Epic 2's .exe is "Multimedia Fusion Express Stand Alone Application". Though, I don't know if the file description can be manipulated, at least for the time period and tools available.

I have no doubt that SME2 started development possibly in CNC! That would explain the file description, as in Clickteam products this was always a default field that auto-populated based on where the file begun development in. Since Clickteam products are always backwards compatible with each other, I would not be surprised if Jeff begun in CNC and finished in MMF1.5 (it allegedly took him a solid year or two to make SME2, so this would track with the time period). Of course, Jeff could always say something that could contradict this, I don't know! It would be quite amusing if a game I always took as being made in the venerable Multimedia Fusion 1.5 was actually successfully hocked up in what was essentially The Games Factory 1.5, haha

As far as the Toad Strikes Back demos, you got me there. The v3 demo wasn't well-known until recently, and I think I might know who found out where to download that! So to your credit, some of your historical research actually was able to come back up in an interesting context! Yeah, TD definitely strikes me as one of the people on MFGG who probably hopped between all of the Clickteam products, most likely.

[Q-Nova]

I have no doubt that SME2 started development possibly in CNC! That would explain the file description, as in Clickteam products this was always a default field that auto-populated based on where the file begun development in. Since Clickteam products are always backwards compatible with each other, I would not be surprised if Jeff begun in CNC and finished in MMF1.5 (it allegedly took him a solid year or two to make SME2, so this would track with the time period). Of course, Jeff could always say something that could contradict this, I don't know! It would be quite amusing if a game I always took as being made in the venerable Multimedia Fusion 1.5 was actually successfully hocked up in what was essentially The Games Factory 1.5, haha

So, the file description describes the program the game started with, even if it's exported by a different program? That's new to me. According to the MFGG Wiki article for Super Mario Epic 2 (largely written by Jeff Silvers himself), the game started in TGF and then moved over to Multimedia Fusion Express (CNC as you know). Maybe you misread that as MMF1.5?

Also, Click Extract's level viewer works fine with SME2. I tried using it with a MMF1.5 file, and it threw up a bunch of error messages before closing, so I don't think the program is compatible with MMF1.5 games (at least not for the level viewer).

As far as the Toad Strikes Back demos, you got me there. The v3 demo wasn't well-known until recently, and I think I might know who found out where to download that! So to your credit, some of your historical research actually was able to come back up in an interesting context! Yeah, TD definitely strikes me as one of the people on MFGG who probably hopped between all of the Clickteam products, most likely.

I got the v3 demo from the Wayback Machine. I looked at an old timestamp for the MFGG main site, looked at Toad Strikes Back, and was glad to find out that the download has been archived!

Quillax Ship - Where you can download all of my cool, keen mods and super-marvelous fangames!

[Vitiman]

So, the file description describes the program the game started with, even if it's exported by a different program? That's new to me. According to the MFGG Wiki article for Super Mario Epic 2 (largely written by Jeff Silvers himself), the game started in TGF and then moved over to Multimedia Fusion Express (CNC as you know). Maybe you misread that as MMF1.5?

So, if there's proof Jeff wrote that part of the article himself, then this is a closed case. You'd be correct, and I made an incorrect assumption, haha. Luckily, the good news about wiki articles is the nature of their back end means we actually have a pretty definitive way to figure out when and where that claim was originally made. Sure enough, on May 1, 2006, written by Jeff Silvers himself...

When file corruptions began to occur on a nearly weekly basis, Silvers switched production of the game over to Multimedia Fusion Express, a program that was essentially the same as The Games Factory but less prone to file corruption. The file corruption incidences became much rarer after the switch.

I suppose all my years of upholding Epic 2 as an early example of what you could do in MMF1.5 specifically were misguided. They led me to push myself with MMF1.5 because I was always like "well SME2 has this, so certainly I can do it too!" Achievements in ignorance is what I would say, if it were not for the fact that MMF1.5 is objectively a more capable program than its predecessors, so it's not like... being able to do something in MMF Express/CNC inherently meant you could not in 1.5, haha. Also, do not be alarmed, I did not misread Express as 1.5 and draw that conclusion from there, the truth is I didn't even make a point of seeing that part of the Wiki until now, and thought someone else must have added that erroneously to the article. My only contribution to the article was give it a screenshot in 2012! My belief that 1.5 was used for the game probably came from something someone said on the old forums years ago, or maybe it was just something I assumed based purely on the .CCA file. Either way, it was not a case of fleeting dyslexia! I'm sorry, maybe that joke is in poor taste...

Also, Click Extract's level viewer works fine with SME2. I tried using it with a MMF1.5 file, and it threw up a bunch of error messages before closing, so I don't think the program is compatible with MMF1.5 games (at least not for the level viewer).

This isn't the smoking gun you might think it is! While SME2 definitively has been catalogued as an MMF Express joint (mostly), there are even .TGF files that won't open in Click Extract properly. Sometimes the event/level data isn't always compatible, and it doesn't fully have to do with what program it was made in. I will say that 1.5 files are far more likely to not work with it, but that doesn't mean none will. I think it depends on what kind of events or extensions a person used? But honestly, I have no idea. I'm so glad a tool like that exists, to preserve the inner-workings of really old fan games. I was able to decompile a few of the Mario's Mansion games to use their assets/try finishing one of them forever ago. Actually, I was recently going out of my way to finally finish my Mario's Mansion 3 continuation! But I stopped a few months back because of other commitments in my life (work mostly, but other hobbies and IRL things like playing live music have also took up a lot of my productivity-based free time). I would really like to finally release it, it's over 10 years in the making alone, and then you add the 10 from before I started my continuation and it's over 20 years in the oven. The world finally needs to see Mario's Mansion 3!

Sorry, that was quite a tangent to go on lol

[Q-Nova]

Glad to see the wiki get some good use! I bet you now have reached another level of respect for Jeff Silvers!

This isn't the smoking gun you might think it is! While SME2 definitively has been catalogued as an MMF Express joint (mostly), there are even .TGF files that won't open in Click Extract properly. Sometimes the event/level data isn't always compatible, and it doesn't fully have to do with what program it was made in. I will say that 1.5 files are far more likely to not work with it, but that doesn't mean none will. I think it depends on what kind of events or extensions a person used? But honestly, I have no idea.

Now that you mention it, I remember this one CNC game I opened with the tool, where it works all fine. I was able to extract maps for each level... except for ONE particular level. With that level, I can still see the list of objects and what they look like, but when I try to create a map, the program spits out some errors and then gives up. I tried this a few times just to be sure, and nothing has changed. No idea why that happens. I'd be interested in knowing what MMF1.5 games work with Click Extract, if you know any.

I'm so glad a tool like that exists, to preserve the inner-workings of really old fan games. I was able to decompile a few of the Mario's Mansion games to use their assets/try finishing one of them forever ago. Actually, I was recently going out of my way to finally finish my Mario's Mansion 3 continuation! But I stopped a few months back because of other commitments in my life (work mostly, but other hobbies and IRL things like playing live music have also took up a lot of my productivity-based free time). I would really like to finally release it, it's over 10 years in the making alone, and then you add the 10 from before I started my continuation and it's over 20 years in the oven. The world finally needs to see Mario's Mansion 3!

Sorry, that was quite a tangent to go on lol

Yeah, thanks for submitting Click Extract to the main site all those years ago! It's kinda neat to have an easy way to make level maps (always like seeing the bigger picture), and it's really cool to get a glimpse of the inner workings and data of those old Clickteam games, especially when you discover unused stuff! Like, did you know that sprites for Thunder Dragon and Supertoad2k exist in the V3 demo for Toad Strikes Back, where they're placed out-of-bounds in some levels? There's even a red-and-black version of TD! Ooh, and what about the fact that in the first level, there's a unique Bob-Omb sprite along with a HUD icon depicting a Bob-Omb, the latter of which suggests that the Bob-Omb was going to be a powerup? Maybe TD reused that idea for the sleeping Bob-Omb you can throw around in Toadette Strikes...

I'd love to see Mario's Mansion 3 finally get a full release and bring a closure to the saga, even if it's in an unofficial form! I remember seeing the screenshots you posted long, long ago (I believe this was before I joined MFGG) and being pretty intrigued by them. You seem like the perfect person to take on FanGuy's project; your reviews for his games show that you understand the vibe of them pretty well! I, too, quite enjoyed the innocent, child-like, hopeful, and ethereal Paper Mario 64 feel that the Mario's Mansion trilogy captured successfully (with a few slightly corny, but charming, "fangame-isms" of course)!

I'm really enjoying this in-depth discussion here! This might be one of the best discussions I've ever had on MFGG! I didn't expect it when I started the topic! Speaking of the topic, if I may add onto it as established by the original post for a moment, it seems that only 3 people have voted, compared to the 15 people that voted in the GameMaker poll. Granted, I know that historically MFGG has far more Game Maker users than Clickteam users, at least since the 2010s, if not earlier, so it's not too surprising. (I'm sure we're missing a couple voters, though...)

Quillax Ship - Where you can download all of my cool, keen mods and super-marvelous fangames!