I want to kind of re-state my point, hopefully in a more concise and civil way.
Your conclusion here seems to be summed up pretty good here:
I don't believe in free will.
2. Reason
I believe in reason because it produces results. Typically the Eric Hovind types would jump in and say "but how can you trust your brain to process reason if it's randomly evolved" or something of that sort. I can verify patterns and because of that I am more likely to survive as a living organism, and my kind has increased quality and length of life by a long shot. That's a decent -- though imperfect -- metric for how trustworthy my logic is. The 0.01% chance that I'm wrong about reason seems to me to be pretty much reserved to "nothing is real as you know it, the universe is your own illusion" or something like that. My response to that is: surely you don't claim to be any more certain than me that this isn't the case.
3. Morality
As far as morality, it seems like you define it way too narrowly.
The whole subjective vs objective morality thing, for instance. Objective morality is literally just subjective morality, except some people like to go around saying "god's morality is better than yours". Objective morality might as well be a kind of subjective morality. That's only point one; other points include the haughty idea that whatever moral system you follow and claim to be the objective one really IS the best one. There's so much in-fighting, especially in Christianity, that any claim of objectiveness from anybody of any worldview, especially someone who says "here dude read this other book that was written by people I don't know and can't understand in any sort of personal way", shouldn't be taken too seriously in my opinion.
Where does my "morality" come from? As I said in a previous post, the same place as yours. But when I talk about morality, here's what I say: Morality is a practical, political thing. The idea that objective morality exists, and that the purpose of man is to fear God and keep his commandments, seems entirely contrary to what morality should really be about. It's not about obeying authority. I obey the law, and pay taxes to a system that punishes people who disobey the law; in return, the world is better to me than it would be without the law. I have my strong criticisms of how we do this, but it's better than nothing. Now, a lot of people will disagree with my specific view of morality; anarchists probably think we could get along better without cops, fascists think we need MORE cop action, etc. But it's the people who believe in objective morality that are unique in that they offer no solutions and no reasons for believing what they believe. If I'm wrong, feel free to do a big write-up about this sentence; I genuinely believe and stand by what I just said.
4. Purpose
My purpose and your purpose are one in the same. Happiness.
I know I can experience happiness, I know I can experience fun, I know I can experience love and joy and peace. I'm motivated to do things that will help me experience these things. Just like you.
Even the world's most devoted Christian is a hedonist, in that they do what they do because they love God and obeying God gives them pleasure. They want to go to heaven, the ultimate hedonist paradise, where they can worship God all day long and experience nothing but pleasure for all eternity. The same can be said of Islam and Buddhism by only changing a few words.
Trigger warning on this next part:
So your main points are all pretty thoroughly debunked, if you ask me. By my posts, and the posts of others.
But I'd also like to get to the whole "you aren't committing suicide right this instant, therefore clearly proving the existence of Yahweh, national god of Israel and Canaanite storm god-turned-primary deity" thing.
Cap'n Coconuts, I know you're a smart guy. You clearly do a great deal of thinking. But this argument was really not good. I just can't express what it's like to open up a thread where a 20-something on a Mario forum says that most people are for some reason scared of the divine knowledge you're about to drop, and then your argument amounts to "atheists, why haven't you killed yourselves? check mate".
Also you quoted Ecclesiastes more than once, a book from the Old Testament. I believe there is one and only mention of the afterlife in the Old Testament, and here it is, Ecclesiastes 3:21:
The Old Testament doesn't believe in an afterlife. The book you quoted bangs into your head almost every other verse how meaningless life is.
You might say "why bother keeping God's commandments if there isn't an afterlife?" Well, Ecclesiastes is widely believed to have been written by Solomon, who is also believed to have written Proverbs. Let's take a look there, chapter 1:
Basically, read all of Proverbs 1. The author is saying, "don't get caught up in evil, or bad things will happen to you". You'll die, or get hurt, or get in trouble.
Back to Ecclesiastes: my favorite way to sum up its meaning is with verse 9:10, here:
Do what do you, and mean it. You are going to die, and then you'll have no knowledge of anything and none of it will have mattered, so make it count.
Amen, Solomon.
Your conclusion here seems to be summed up pretty good here:
Quote:If you believe in free will, reason, morality, and/or purpose in life, you cannot logically be a naturalist1. Free Will
I don't believe in free will.
2. Reason
I believe in reason because it produces results. Typically the Eric Hovind types would jump in and say "but how can you trust your brain to process reason if it's randomly evolved" or something of that sort. I can verify patterns and because of that I am more likely to survive as a living organism, and my kind has increased quality and length of life by a long shot. That's a decent -- though imperfect -- metric for how trustworthy my logic is. The 0.01% chance that I'm wrong about reason seems to me to be pretty much reserved to "nothing is real as you know it, the universe is your own illusion" or something like that. My response to that is: surely you don't claim to be any more certain than me that this isn't the case.
3. Morality
As far as morality, it seems like you define it way too narrowly.
The whole subjective vs objective morality thing, for instance. Objective morality is literally just subjective morality, except some people like to go around saying "god's morality is better than yours". Objective morality might as well be a kind of subjective morality. That's only point one; other points include the haughty idea that whatever moral system you follow and claim to be the objective one really IS the best one. There's so much in-fighting, especially in Christianity, that any claim of objectiveness from anybody of any worldview, especially someone who says "here dude read this other book that was written by people I don't know and can't understand in any sort of personal way", shouldn't be taken too seriously in my opinion.
Where does my "morality" come from? As I said in a previous post, the same place as yours. But when I talk about morality, here's what I say: Morality is a practical, political thing. The idea that objective morality exists, and that the purpose of man is to fear God and keep his commandments, seems entirely contrary to what morality should really be about. It's not about obeying authority. I obey the law, and pay taxes to a system that punishes people who disobey the law; in return, the world is better to me than it would be without the law. I have my strong criticisms of how we do this, but it's better than nothing. Now, a lot of people will disagree with my specific view of morality; anarchists probably think we could get along better without cops, fascists think we need MORE cop action, etc. But it's the people who believe in objective morality that are unique in that they offer no solutions and no reasons for believing what they believe. If I'm wrong, feel free to do a big write-up about this sentence; I genuinely believe and stand by what I just said.
4. Purpose
My purpose and your purpose are one in the same. Happiness.
I know I can experience happiness, I know I can experience fun, I know I can experience love and joy and peace. I'm motivated to do things that will help me experience these things. Just like you.
Even the world's most devoted Christian is a hedonist, in that they do what they do because they love God and obeying God gives them pleasure. They want to go to heaven, the ultimate hedonist paradise, where they can worship God all day long and experience nothing but pleasure for all eternity. The same can be said of Islam and Buddhism by only changing a few words.
Trigger warning on this next part:
So your main points are all pretty thoroughly debunked, if you ask me. By my posts, and the posts of others.
But I'd also like to get to the whole "you aren't committing suicide right this instant, therefore clearly proving the existence of Yahweh, national god of Israel and Canaanite storm god-turned-primary deity" thing.
Cap'n Coconuts, I know you're a smart guy. You clearly do a great deal of thinking. But this argument was really not good. I just can't express what it's like to open up a thread where a 20-something on a Mario forum says that most people are for some reason scared of the divine knowledge you're about to drop, and then your argument amounts to "atheists, why haven't you killed yourselves? check mate".
Also you quoted Ecclesiastes more than once, a book from the Old Testament. I believe there is one and only mention of the afterlife in the Old Testament, and here it is, Ecclesiastes 3:21:
Quote:Who knows if the human spirit rises upward and if the spirit of the animal goes down into the earth?"
The Old Testament doesn't believe in an afterlife. The book you quoted bangs into your head almost every other verse how meaningless life is.
You might say "why bother keeping God's commandments if there isn't an afterlife?" Well, Ecclesiastes is widely believed to have been written by Solomon, who is also believed to have written Proverbs. Let's take a look there, chapter 1:
Quote:10 My son, if sinful men entice you,
do not give in to them.
11 If they say, “Come along with us;
let’s lie in wait for innocent blood,
let’s ambush some harmless soul;
12 let’s swallow them alive, like the grave,
and whole, like those who go down to the pit;
13 we will get all sorts of valuable things
and fill our houses with plunder;
14 cast lots with us;
we will all share the loot”—
15 my son, do not go along with them,
do not set foot on their paths;
16 for their feet rush into evil,
they are swift to shed blood.
17 How useless to spread a net
where every bird can see it!
18 These men lie in wait for their own blood;
they ambush only themselves!
19 Such are the paths of all who go after ill-gotten gain;
it takes away the life of those who get it.
Basically, read all of Proverbs 1. The author is saying, "don't get caught up in evil, or bad things will happen to you". You'll die, or get hurt, or get in trouble.
Back to Ecclesiastes: my favorite way to sum up its meaning is with verse 9:10, here:
Quote:Whatever your hand finds to do, do it with all your might, for in the realm of the dead, where you are going, there is neither working nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom.
Do what do you, and mean it. You are going to die, and then you'll have no knowledge of anything and none of it will have mattered, so make it count.
Amen, Solomon.