Is lumaSMS/MFGG3 getting anywhere?

**Q-Nova** · 01-13-2021, 03:22 AM

I'm wondering if lumaSMS/MFGG3 (the next iteration of MFGG's system) is still being worked on. I haven't heard about it at all lately. I remember it being talked about as far back in 2014 and there was particularly a lot of discussion in 2015 and 2017. At that time, I thought we had established what the site would look like. Last time I heard about lumaSMS, however, was the topic about how the site should look, so I don't know if that's still the case. Is all the talk now on the Discord or has it been forgotten? If it's taking so long because you can't figure out which design looks best, maybe you should have a poll and see what the community thinks.

**Hypernova** · 01-13-2021, 06:58 PM

Mors and I would be taking control of the project. I am not too sure how busy he is but I am very busy writing a website for my client. In addition to that, I'm also looking to become a professional developer

However, once I got more time, I will look into that. I personally would prefer the front end to be something written in React.

**Vitiman** · 01-14-2021, 06:47 PM

Hard as it may be to believe, the project to replace MFGG's aging main site backend has been in on-off development for over a decade now! The earliest incarnations were a venture fronted by Char, who as we know now eventually just dropped off the face of the internet without really saying he would.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to replacing the main site is actually keeping the database. The plan has always been (as far as I know) to move over the existing submissions/comments database without compromising any of the information and, as it were, TCSMS isn't exactly the friendliest piece of code out there.

At this rate, it's tough to say what will come of lumaSMS. As Hypernova mentioned above me, him and Mors have now taken over development of the project from HylianDev, himself having taken over from Guinea who was only trying his best to revitalize a plan made by his friend Char a couple of years prior to that. Unfortunately, as time passes by, this project will only grow more convoluted and - paradoxically - necessary. The longer you guys take to change the infrastructure, the harder it will be to actually do it.

**Mors** · 01-18-2021, 12:40 PM

I'm a bit busy as well, but regardless I have started to actually write down a design document of some sort, detailing our vision from this new site, our goals, and which path we would take during the development.

So things are sort of happening, just not very fast.

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**Mario** · 01-19-2021, 01:14 PM

(01-14-2021, 06:47 PM)Vitiman Wrote: Hard as it may be to believe, the project to replace MFGG's aging main site backend has been in on-off development for over a decade now! The earliest incarnations were a venture fronted by Char, who as we know now eventually just dropped off the face of the internet without really saying he would.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to replacing the main site is actually keeping the database. The plan has always been (as far as I know) to move over the existing submissions/comments database without compromising any of the information and, as it were, TCSMS isn't exactly the friendliest piece of code out there.

At this rate, it's tough to say what will come of lumaSMS. As Hypernova mentioned above me, him and Mors have now taken over development of the project from HylianDev, himself having taken over from Guinea who was only trying his best to revitalize a plan made by his friend Char a couple of years prior to that. Unfortunately, as time passes by, this project will only grow more convoluted and - paradoxically - necessary. The longer you guys take to change the infrastructure, the harder it will be to actually do it.

The database isn't a big deal really. Database migrations are pretty ordinary mundane things, designing a new database and an upgrade path to it is one of the easier parts of a project like this.

I don't know if anything by Char or Guinea is around to make use of. HylianDev's attempt was brand new but he has a pretty big "Not invented here" mentality which would just leave us with the same problems as taloncrossing a few years down the road when he no longer wants to maintain it- or has that already happened?

It's a new project every few years as someone new decides to do it and it's never a major priority for the people who do work on it. It's not an impossible task but it's probably a bit bigger than it seems to anyone who tries to jump on it.

I think it'd be fun for MFGG to have its own platform made for it, but realistically? I don't think mfgg is that special where it's really necessary. Might be worth looking into something tried and true like WordPress- personally I don't really enjoy working with it but it is the most popular and customizable CMS out there so the amount of resources you could find for it is endless.

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**Vitiman** · 01-20-2021, 05:47 AM

(01-19-2021, 01:14 PM)Mario Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 06:47 PM)Vitiman Wrote: Hard as it may be to believe, the project to replace MFGG's aging main site backend has been in on-off development for over a decade now! The earliest incarnations were a venture fronted by Char, who as we know now eventually just dropped off the face of the internet without really saying he would.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to replacing the main site is actually keeping the database. The plan has always been (as far as I know) to move over the existing submissions/comments database without compromising any of the information and, as it were, TCSMS isn't exactly the friendliest piece of code out there.

At this rate, it's tough to say what will come of lumaSMS. As Hypernova mentioned above me, him and Mors have now taken over development of the project from HylianDev, himself having taken over from Guinea who was only trying his best to revitalize a plan made by his friend Char a couple of years prior to that. Unfortunately, as time passes by, this project will only grow more convoluted and - paradoxically - necessary. The longer you guys take to change the infrastructure, the harder it will be to actually do it.

The database isn't a big deal really. Database migrations are pretty ordinary mundane things, designing a new database and an upgrade path to it is one of the easier parts of a project like this.

I don't know if anything by Char or Guinea is around to make use of. HylianDev's attempt was brand new but he has a pretty big "Not invented here" mentality which would just leave us with the same problems as taloncrossing a few years down the road when he no longer wants to maintain it- or has that already happened?

It's a new project every few years as someone new decides to do it and it's never a major priority for the people who do work on it. It's not an impossible task but it's probably a bit bigger than it seems to anyone who tries to jump on it.

I think it'd be fun for MFGG to have its own platform made for it, but realistically? I don't think mfgg is that special where it's really necessary. Might be worth looking into something tried and true like WordPress- personally I don't really enjoy working with it but it is the most popular and customizable CMS out there so the amount of resources you could find for it is endless.

An actively maintained database? Sure, I'll give you that. But MFGG's hasn't really been upkept (that's not a word?) for an uncomfortably long time - probably since the inception of TCSMS back in 2006, I'd be willing to bet. I know Hypernova's poked around in it more recently, but this was done in a very hacky way and to implement much-needed newer features like comment-combing and stuff. There's nothing that suggests the MFGG database is anything but a clunky string of MySQL tables from 15 years ago that weren't made with anyone but one person in mind to be able to make sense of in case of an actual overhaul.

From what I recall, you're correct, Char/Guinea's progress on the revamp was basically scrapped before it ever actually went anywhere. I figure the work Hylian started will also eventually be tossed out due to the problems you outlined, but I don't really know what the longterm game plan is so that's a question better served for Mors or Hypernova or someone else.

I'd love for MFGG to have its own little CMS, but you're probably right, at this rate it really isn't worth the trouble. The staff keep restarting the project, dropping it, coming back to it, and each iteration always seems focused on reinventing the wheel. MFGG just needs something to maintain its wide catalogue so like... as long as it does that, right? But I digress.

Ultimately, MFGG having its old clunky main site can be seen as part of the charm! But with the website getting less and less activity as time goes forward, being stuck in the past isn't really doing it any favours either. I guess the real question is if it's too late to salvage interest in a modern MFGG or not?

**Mario** · 01-20-2021, 10:59 AM

What difference does it make if it's actively maintained or not?

I think the problem may be that nobody understands the database. This is going to be the problem with any custom CMS. Hell- it's going to be a problem with any CMS in general- for something tried and true you may at least have documentation about it, but they're much more complex than what MFGG has and you're going to spend just as much time figuring it out, if not more.

I've seen MFGG's database. It's certainly not a shining beacon of MySQL best practices (which mind you, have changed in the last 15 years anyway I'm sure) and I wouldn't recommend using the structure for whatever next, but it's certainly not Pandora's box.

If this is such a huge pain point that it's become lore that it's the most difficult piece of the puzzle, then maybe going through the database and docunenting the structure should be priority one- the advantage of that is if version 4 or 5 of this doesn't get off the ground you won't have to do it again for versions 6 and on since the database certainly isn't changing (much) as long as you guys are on taloncrossing.

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**Vitiman** · 01-20-2021, 05:44 PM

@Mario For what it's worth, I never meant to imply it was an unsolvable riddle. I was just echoing the sentiments other staffers had about getting the project off the ground a couple of years ago (which, given that this was 2018 at the latest, I'm sure things have changed significantly since then).

I apologize if I came off like I stating it would be nigh impossible to move over the database - it has a lot more to do with its general messiness. I'm sure it's not an impossible task, but it's probably a tedious one. Nobody wants to do the boring stuff Soveryhappy

**VinnyVideo** · 01-20-2021, 08:19 PM

The current mainsite database has 28 tables and weighs in at under 100 MB. The size and structure are simple as far as databases go.

Could the database structure be improved? I'm sure it could. However, I think the database structure is fairly easy to understand and maintain.

The biggest challenge is getting someone with both the skill and the free time to build a new frontend for the system. It's been hard to find someone with both of those! We've been able to splice on a few new features in recent years (new skins, post-liking, a hacks section, and so forth), although having a shiny new redesign would be optimal.

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