Is lumaSMS/MFGG3 getting anywhere?

**Q-Nova** · 01-13-2021, 03:22 AM

I'm wondering if lumaSMS/MFGG3 (the next iteration of MFGG's system) is still being worked on. I haven't heard about it at all lately. I remember it being talked about as far back in 2014 and there was particularly a lot of discussion in 2015 and 2017. At that time, I thought we had established what the site would look like. Last time I heard about lumaSMS, however, was the topic about how the site should look, so I don't know if that's still the case. Is all the talk now on the Discord or has it been forgotten? If it's taking so long because you can't figure out which design looks best, maybe you should have a poll and see what the community thinks.

**Hypernova** · 01-13-2021, 06:58 PM

Mors and I would be taking control of the project. I am not too sure how busy he is but I am very busy writing a website for my client. In addition to that, I'm also looking to become a professional developer

However, once I got more time, I will look into that. I personally would prefer the front end to be something written in React.

**Vitiman** · 01-14-2021, 06:47 PM

Hard as it may be to believe, the project to replace MFGG's aging main site backend has been in on-off development for over a decade now! The earliest incarnations were a venture fronted by Char, who as we know now eventually just dropped off the face of the internet without really saying he would.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to replacing the main site is actually keeping the database. The plan has always been (as far as I know) to move over the existing submissions/comments database without compromising any of the information and, as it were, TCSMS isn't exactly the friendliest piece of code out there.

At this rate, it's tough to say what will come of lumaSMS. As Hypernova mentioned above me, him and Mors have now taken over development of the project from HylianDev, himself having taken over from Guinea who was only trying his best to revitalize a plan made by his friend Char a couple of years prior to that. Unfortunately, as time passes by, this project will only grow more convoluted and - paradoxically - necessary. The longer you guys take to change the infrastructure, the harder it will be to actually do it.

**Mors** · 01-18-2021, 12:40 PM

I'm a bit busy as well, but regardless I have started to actually write down a design document of some sort, detailing our vision from this new site, our goals, and which path we would take during the development.

So things are sort of happening, just not very fast.

**Mario** · 01-19-2021, 01:14 PM

(01-14-2021, 06:47 PM)Vitiman Wrote: Hard as it may be to believe, the project to replace MFGG's aging main site backend has been in on-off development for over a decade now! The earliest incarnations were a venture fronted by Char, who as we know now eventually just dropped off the face of the internet without really saying he would.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to replacing the main site is actually keeping the database. The plan has always been (as far as I know) to move over the existing submissions/comments database without compromising any of the information and, as it were, TCSMS isn't exactly the friendliest piece of code out there.

At this rate, it's tough to say what will come of lumaSMS. As Hypernova mentioned above me, him and Mors have now taken over development of the project from HylianDev, himself having taken over from Guinea who was only trying his best to revitalize a plan made by his friend Char a couple of years prior to that. Unfortunately, as time passes by, this project will only grow more convoluted and - paradoxically - necessary. The longer you guys take to change the infrastructure, the harder it will be to actually do it.

The database isn't a big deal really. Database migrations are pretty ordinary mundane things, designing a new database and an upgrade path to it is one of the easier parts of a project like this.

I don't know if anything by Char or Guinea is around to make use of. HylianDev's attempt was brand new but he has a pretty big "Not invented here" mentality which would just leave us with the same problems as taloncrossing a few years down the road when he no longer wants to maintain it- or has that already happened?

It's a new project every few years as someone new decides to do it and it's never a major priority for the people who do work on it. It's not an impossible task but it's probably a bit bigger than it seems to anyone who tries to jump on it.

I think it'd be fun for MFGG to have its own platform made for it, but realistically? I don't think mfgg is that special where it's really necessary. Might be worth looking into something tried and true like WordPress- personally I don't really enjoy working with it but it is the most popular and customizable CMS out there so the amount of resources you could find for it is endless.

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**Vitiman** · 01-20-2021, 05:47 AM

(01-19-2021, 01:14 PM)Mario Wrote:
(01-14-2021, 06:47 PM)Vitiman Wrote: Hard as it may be to believe, the project to replace MFGG's aging main site backend has been in on-off development for over a decade now! The earliest incarnations were a venture fronted by Char, who as we know now eventually just dropped off the face of the internet without really saying he would.

The biggest hurdle when it comes to replacing the main site is actually keeping the database. The plan has always been (as far as I know) to move over the existing submissions/comments database without compromising any of the information and, as it were, TCSMS isn't exactly the friendliest piece of code out there.

At this rate, it's tough to say what will come of lumaSMS. As Hypernova mentioned above me, him and Mors have now taken over development of the project from HylianDev, himself having taken over from Guinea who was only trying his best to revitalize a plan made by his friend Char a couple of years prior to that. Unfortunately, as time passes by, this project will only grow more convoluted and - paradoxically - necessary. The longer you guys take to change the infrastructure, the harder it will be to actually do it.

The database isn't a big deal really. Database migrations are pretty ordinary mundane things, designing a new database and an upgrade path to it is one of the easier parts of a project like this.

I don't know if anything by Char or Guinea is around to make use of. HylianDev's attempt was brand new but he has a pretty big "Not invented here" mentality which would just leave us with the same problems as taloncrossing a few years down the road when he no longer wants to maintain it- or has that already happened?

It's a new project every few years as someone new decides to do it and it's never a major priority for the people who do work on it. It's not an impossible task but it's probably a bit bigger than it seems to anyone who tries to jump on it.

I think it'd be fun for MFGG to have its own platform made for it, but realistically? I don't think mfgg is that special where it's really necessary. Might be worth looking into something tried and true like WordPress- personally I don't really enjoy working with it but it is the most popular and customizable CMS out there so the amount of resources you could find for it is endless.

An actively maintained database? Sure, I'll give you that. But MFGG's hasn't really been upkept (that's not a word?) for an uncomfortably long time - probably since the inception of TCSMS back in 2006, I'd be willing to bet. I know Hypernova's poked around in it more recently, but this was done in a very hacky way and to implement much-needed newer features like comment-combing and stuff. There's nothing that suggests the MFGG database is anything but a clunky string of MySQL tables from 15 years ago that weren't made with anyone but one person in mind to be able to make sense of in case of an actual overhaul.

From what I recall, you're correct, Char/Guinea's progress on the revamp was basically scrapped before it ever actually went anywhere. I figure the work Hylian started will also eventually be tossed out due to the problems you outlined, but I don't really know what the longterm game plan is so that's a question better served for Mors or Hypernova or someone else.

I'd love for MFGG to have its own little CMS, but you're probably right, at this rate it really isn't worth the trouble. The staff keep restarting the project, dropping it, coming back to it, and each iteration always seems focused on reinventing the wheel. MFGG just needs something to maintain its wide catalogue so like... as long as it does that, right? But I digress.

Ultimately, MFGG having its old clunky main site can be seen as part of the charm! But with the website getting less and less activity as time goes forward, being stuck in the past isn't really doing it any favours either. I guess the real question is if it's too late to salvage interest in a modern MFGG or not?

**Mario** · 01-20-2021, 10:59 AM

What difference does it make if it's actively maintained or not?

I think the problem may be that nobody understands the database. This is going to be the problem with any custom CMS. Hell- it's going to be a problem with any CMS in general- for something tried and true you may at least have documentation about it, but they're much more complex than what MFGG has and you're going to spend just as much time figuring it out, if not more.

I've seen MFGG's database. It's certainly not a shining beacon of MySQL best practices (which mind you, have changed in the last 15 years anyway I'm sure) and I wouldn't recommend using the structure for whatever next, but it's certainly not Pandora's box.

If this is such a huge pain point that it's become lore that it's the most difficult piece of the puzzle, then maybe going through the database and docunenting the structure should be priority one- the advantage of that is if version 4 or 5 of this doesn't get off the ground you won't have to do it again for versions 6 and on since the database certainly isn't changing (much) as long as you guys are on taloncrossing.

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Interested in web development? Check out Super Mario Web Development. Wahoo!

""We choose to go to the [Suggestions board] not because it's easy, but because it's hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."
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**Vitiman** · 01-20-2021, 05:44 PM

@Mario For what it's worth, I never meant to imply it was an unsolvable riddle. I was just echoing the sentiments other staffers had about getting the project off the ground a couple of years ago (which, given that this was 2018 at the latest, I'm sure things have changed significantly since then).

I apologize if I came off like I stating it would be nigh impossible to move over the database - it has a lot more to do with its general messiness. I'm sure it's not an impossible task, but it's probably a tedious one. Nobody wants to do the boring stuff Soveryhappy

**VinnyVideo** · 01-20-2021, 08:19 PM

The current mainsite database has 28 tables and weighs in at under 100 MB. The size and structure are simple as far as databases go.

Could the database structure be improved? I'm sure it could. However, I think the database structure is fairly easy to understand and maintain.

The biggest challenge is getting someone with both the skill and the free time to build a new frontend for the system. It's been hard to find someone with both of those! We've been able to splice on a few new features in recent years (new skins, post-liking, a hacks section, and so forth), although having a shiny new redesign would be optimal.

Course clear! You got a card.

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**Q-Nova** · 07-28-2021, 01:13 AM

It's been a while since there has been any response, so I'm bringing this back up to see if lumaSMS has gotten any further. I'm pinging @Hypernova and @Mors since last time I heard about it, they're in control of the project.

I've been thinking lately: What is the purpose of the upgrade? We should think about how the upgrade will be done. As far I know, it's going to be more reliable, easier to work with, and more stable than the Taloncrossing system that's currently used, which sounds like a nightmare to mess with. If that's all there is, then is there anything wrong with making it look just like the Taloncrossing site, only more robust under the surface? New designs have been brought up, but what advantages do they have over the old design? If the old site design is fine the way it is, then it's probably not worth the trouble to come up with a brand new design. You could make a new system that looks the same in the surface, but now that it's easier to work with, you can easily add some new features, like forum account integration.

I know there's been discussion about making it mobile-friendly, but to be honest, do we really need that? Almost all the games and how-tos are PC-only and I doubt sprites and sounds will have much use if all you have is a smartphone, at least not for game development. I don't know if hacks can really be played on mobile either and much of the misc stuff might be useless. However, the only thing I can see being usable in a smartphone is commenting and reviewing, which are important things. Maybe you should open up a poll to see what devices our users use to explore MFGG and only bother with a mobile-friendly design if the majority prefers to use smartphones.

Will the new system be written from scratch or will it be based off of an existing CMS, like WordPress as @Mario mentioned? If you constantly have to start from scratch, then maybe it's worth taking a look at an existing framework. That, or if you're getting too fancy with the new system, then maybe you should do something simpler but still functional and usable. Whatever you do, I just hope it's usable and not filled with useless garbage. I don't think we need any fancy scripts that just eat up bandwidth and stretch out loading times -- some people might think they'll make the site look pretty, but I think they're unnecessary. I'd also prefer a site that doesn't spy on users to make money -- we don't need that either.

What new features do we need? I know forum account integration has been talked about for a very long time. @GeneralGuy has brought up the SMM2 level database idea many times, but is that game still popular? I do like the idea, since I don't know if any site has something like that. How hard is it to implement into Taloncrossing? A new section was added a while ago (the hacks), so it should be possible to do it again. I think what we could really use is some changes to make the tag system better for resources. You should be able to view the tags in a submission so it's easier to find any incorrect ones. We should also decide on what the "Game" tag means. I always thought it meant the style, but I've been seeing sprites that use a game tag just because it's a character that appeared in the game. Let's take the Super Mario Bros. 1 (16-bit) tag for instance. I always thought that tag was meant for sprites that either came from the game or use the style. However, I see some sprites that are only related to the game through the characters, such as this and that.

If all a new system does is add some bells and whistles, then is it really worth the trouble to make it? I know people have said that Taloncrossing is rough to work with behind the scenes, but as long as you can make sense of it, then it's fine. I think it still serves its purpose very well and isn't very clunky to work with in the surface. Sometimes you just need to be happy with what you have! If the new system is a lot more effective, then that's great, but it's not the end of the world if it never gets made.

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**Hypernova**

Good timing. I just started started the backend part of LumaSMS about a week ago since I had a lot of life issues which prevent me to start working on it. My last job took all of my times away and I then spent another 2 months trying to find a developer job. But yeah, I do have a dev job now.

I already got the user login system and a bit of submission components made. The entire user registration, login, permission system are finished and I have tested it via Postman. The new LumaSMS will be in NodeJS (Express + React + MySQL). I've already made a GitHub repository about it which it can be seen here: https://github.com/HypernovaTX/LumaSMSJS

I'm just not a fan of PHP due to many latencies and difficulties to maintain in the long run. Which is why I started over with this and I've already got some solid progress on it. Plus, I believe this MERN-ish (MySQL instead of MongoBD) stack would be a lot faster to develop. Also JS is more efficient handling data faster since it is asynchronous.

It is public since any vulnerable information are not being pushed (.gitignore).

Design wise, the theme is fine but it is still crutial to use it on a mobile sometimes since some users can check on comments and reviews on the go. Second, we may begin to see some developers starting to port their games for different platforms, so promoting that would grow the community. That's just my thoughts but I could be wrong. In addition, it is hard to add a new theme to TCSMS: you have to manually create several new files corresponding to TCSMS and then manually go to the db and references the files for the theme. LumaSMS will be a lot easier to manage themes.

Also LumaSMS will be an all-in-one kind of a deal where we merge the main site and forums together. MyBB is okay but there's lack of documentations to maintain. Any modifications done outside of the plugin to the forum software will break if an update is performed and MyBB has updates to combat any security holes. Also, it is vulnerable to spambots unlike a custom written software, which is why TCSMS rarely get spam.

I haven't thought too much about new features. I think Mors would have a clearer image to handle that. I am more of a developer on this. Since TCSMS is very clunky to add more features, LumaSMS would be a lot better. Plus the backend is RESTful API is much easier to add new festures by routes.

Edit: yeah....WordPress would be a nightmare to manage as a substitute of TCSMS. It has a very similar issue like MyBB and it is a very high target for hackers. Also TCSMS is plagued with security vulnerabilities which is a disaster waiting to happen.

**Q-Nova** · 06-19-2022, 03:56 AM

@Hypernova @Mors

Looks like it's been almost a year since Hypernova's post and about a year and a half since the design document (found through a link in the GitHub page) was last updated. How are things going there? I've got many questions and comments:

What Hypernova said here and Mors wrote on the design document seem very promising. Is NodeJS a common thing for websites these days? Are there any examples so I know what to expect? The main site and forum integration looks like it'll be awesome! It's nice that you're making it a bit easier for newcomers to find good games! They're a pretty important audience to consider! The 3D models section will be nice to have, as long as we can get enough good model rippers/creators. Will the non-Mario content go into a separate site or will it all stay in one site? I agree that badges should feel like awards rather than free candy (as they've been lately); nice to see you're working on that. I'm kinda glad that signatures are forced to be just one line of text; I find the bigger ones to be a little obnoxious. What does Banner URL mean? Is that for the bar that appears under the avatar and text (e.g. "Member", "Global Mod")? Do we have to give out our date of birth? How will the tutorials work?

Keep up the good work!

Quillax Ship - Where you can download all of my cool, keen mods and super-marvelous fangames!

**Hypernova** · 06-30-2022, 12:11 PM

I don't bother to be involved in this anymore for several reasons:
- The design document is too ambitious that it's overwhelming.
- I'm doing all the work and I no longer have time to work on it due to the fact I got promoted at work.
- I will step down from all positions, I have outgrown MFGG and don't care for the community anymore.