The ACTUAL Problem with MFGG

[HellJumper]

You do realize that a lot of people give you constructive criticism, but you're just too stubborn to listen to it without getting angry and stomping off? Also nice pointless post.

Yes. You are absolutely right.

(Insert GIF here)

Mario's running animation as of now.

It looks nice but the way his hat flips so quickly looks a little odd to me

(Insert improved GIF)

Slight update. Made the hat flip a lot smoother. Does that fix it?

Cry me a river, Catonator.

 Jumping feet first into hell isn't my job; making sure it's crowded when I get there is. 

[Mors]

Yes. You are absolutely right.

(Insert GIF here)

Mario's running animation as of now.

It looks nice but the way his hat flips so quickly looks a little odd to me

(Insert improved GIF)

Slight update. Made the hat flip a lot smoother. Does that fix it?

Cry me a river, Catonator.

Yes listening to criticism once makes all other instances of not listening irrelevant.

Why are we arguing about this here anyway?

[Pedigree]

Your feedback is welcome, but claiming you have all the answers to problems with our community and how to fix the "ACTUAL" problems is a bit much. You especially lost me when you claimed almost everyone who knows how to pixel art has left, "fangame developers are the worst breed of gamedev out there" and patted yourself on the back for having better things to do than developing fangames...

To be blunt, having done nothing as of late to contribute to our community in any meaningful way, I find many of your assertions to be hypocritical and your attitude about it insulting as well.

Do something with your concerns instead of just preaching your word as if it's gospel. For example:

• If you don't like the quality of pixel art here, post constructive criticism or write up a guide.
  
• If you have constructive criticism to offer that will change how fangamers see game development, share them.
  
• If you want to see projects outside of fangames, post your indie stuff here and perhaps others will follow suit.
  
• If you don't like how inactive it is or how low quality the content is, then be active and post quality content yourself. Talking about how you have better things to do isn't helping, lol.
  

A couple side notes:

• There are a lot of factors that affect our activity, and some of those are out of our control. Interest in Nintendo and Mario in general is a great example, especially during gaps between Mario games. The DMCA takedown scare is also a real thing.
  
• Branching out into indie game development will probably not have the impact you are expecting, as there are many communities better suited to that available.
  
• You're not the first and won't be the last person to claim MFGG is going to die if your advice isn't heeded. Someday it may die, but it's not going to do so any time soon unless something catastrophic happens.
  

I will return to the thread with more in depth thoughts and to answer each point, but this is what I have to say for now.

 

[HellJumper]

Yes listening to criticism once makes all other instances of not listening irrelevant.

Well please, dm me all these other instances of me not listening. If I was not listening, or if I responded in a negative way, is because whatever was recommended to "improve my sprite" wouldn't improve it, but rather change it. And a lot of that "constructive" criticism isn't really constructive at all. Most of it is either trash talking, or they don't go into detail. Like instead of saying "this shade has too much saturation", it'd be "The colors don't look riiiiiiiiiight!"

If someone wants me to take their criticism seriously, then they need to be more informative, and not recommend changes that fundamentally contradict the style I am going for.

Take this as an example:

Looks great! The thing is, it seems kind of weird that Mario only looks in one direction, but that might just be me. Maybe you should make him look over his shoulder? I don't know. It's up to you. Also, Mario seems kind of stiff, except for the moving hand when he scratches his nose and when he looks to the side. I don't know if this counts as saying "it's not expreeeessive enough" (as you put it), but I'm just trying to critique the sprite to the best of my ability. Keep up the good work!

Nah. You at least explained how you thought it wasn't expressive enough, and how it could be improved. I'll definitely work on that.

This is constructive criticism. He (or she, but imma say he) told me what he thought could be improved, and actually told me how it could be improved. It didn't just boil down to "It's not expreeeessive enough."

Why are we arguing about this here anyway?

Why are we arguing about this here? HMMMMMMMM...

Yes, screw em for giving you feedback and getting annoyed when you completely ignore them with the excuse of "this is my art style". damn, what a bunch of elitists!

Because you completely disregarded what I said, and left a snarky reply.

 Jumping feet first into hell isn't my job; making sure it's crowded when I get there is. 

[Mors]

A couple side notes:

• There are a lot of factors that affect our activity, and some of those are out of our control. Interest in Nintendo and Mario in general is a great example, especially during gaps between Mario games. The DMCA takedown scare is also a real thing.

Interest in Mario is as high as it can get tho, like Mario Odyssey was probably the most hyped Mario game that came out after Galaxy and MFGG didn't gain any activity from it. Oh and you guys completely ignored all the DMCA stuff until I suggested you to say something about it, but that was way after it stopped being relevant to the public, so the damage was already done and it was already too late. So please please please don't blame outside factors or something for the decline of MFGG, you guys can't improve the site without acknowledging your mistakes.

Because you completely disregarded what I said, and left a snarky reply.

No, it's because you brought this up on an unrelated topic lol

[Pedigree]

I said "some factors" not all Mors.

As for your raving about warning MFGG about the DMCA stuff, I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about in regards to whatever you wanted done about that.

It's also not irrelevant and the DMCA scare still comes up to this day, iirc several people besides me even mentioned it in this thread.

 

[Mors]

I said "some factors" not all Mors.

i still don't think it should be used as an excuse but ok, my bad, i misread that

As for your raving about warning MFGG about the DMCA stuff, I have absolutely no clue what you are talking about in regards to whatever you wanted done about that.

you guys made a post about that shortly after i suggested it but alright, sorry for assuming that people actually listen to the s*** i say

It's also not irrelevant and the DMCA scare still comes up to this day, iirc several people besides me even mentioned it in this thread.

I'm taking about it being irrelevant to the public, not to this community. i mean the whole public freakout about that didn't last very long and a lot of people left mfgg during that period. if that informative post was made back then and not when the freakout was over then some people wouldn't leave, that's what i was trying to say

why do i still care anyways

[Catonator]

Yes listening to criticism once makes all other instances of not listening irrelevant.

Well please, dm me all these other instances of me not listening.

Technically irrelevant, but since you insist.

[your sprite of mario]
[10:03] Darkonius Mavakar: He's orange
[10:05] HellJumper: Which
[10:05] HellJumper: nose
[10:05] HellJumper: looks
[10:05] HellJumper: better
[11:03] Darkonius Mavakar: First fix the colors
[11:25] HellJumper: They're fine.
[11:27] Darkonius Mavakar: No they're not
[11:27] Darkonius Mavakar: They're too bright
[11:27] Darkonius Mavakar: The skin is orange
[11:28] Darkonius Mavakar: The hat is too red too
[11:34] HellJumper: Go f*** a donkey.

because whatever was recommended to "improve my sprite" wouldn't improve it, but rather change it.

Alright, so what is your definition of improving? If you're adamant of making no changes to it, then it's not improving it. "it's my artstyle bro" isn't a counterpoint to criticism about basic anatomical or shading mistakes in your art.

And a lot of that "constructive" criticism isn't really constructive at all. Most of it is either trash talking, or they don't go into detail. Like instead of saying "this shade has too much saturation", it'd be "The colors don't look riiiiiiiiiight!"

SICK strawman. Most of the time it's really that you didn't get the exact answer you wanted and instead you got criticism on some other flaw in your sprites. Also isn't this kind of ironic? You complained about elitism in your initial post but generally you come across as an elitist about your own opinions.

There are a lot of factors that affect our activity, and some of those are out of our control. Interest in Nintendo and Mario in general is a great example, especially during gaps between Mario games.

I don't really agree with this. Generally the interest in fangaming is higher during the gaps between official releases, since Nintendo has nothing new to offer during those periods.

Catonator.net | Twitter | YouTube | Soundcloud | Bandcamp

 
signatures are hard pls listen to music thxbye

[Pedigree]

you guys made a post about that shortly after i suggested it but alright, sorry for assuming that people actually listen to the s*** i say

It happened a long time ago so if you made that suggestion, I probably just forgot.

I'm taking about it being irrelevant to the public, not to this community. i mean the whole public freakout about that didn't last very long and a lot of people left mfgg during that period. if that informative post was made back then and not when the freakout was over then some people wouldn't leave, that's what i was trying to say

Oh okay, makes sense. Who left over that exactly?

We still get questions about it from new members so it's not like it's wasted. Unfortunately we are not time travelers and can't do anything about the situation before that thread was made so I don't feel like it's worth it to keep holding onto what could have or should have been done then. Focus on the present and future.

I worry that some members hold onto every mistake made by staff just to keep discourse going instead of pushing for changes. What changes are you looking for now exactly? What can we do differently now?



Anyways, those things I mentioned in side notes were just examples of factors that are not in our control, whether or not you agree with them. It isnt about making excuses, the point is that pointing the fingers at staff for everything wrong with MFGG isn't accurate or productive. Some changes have to start with the members themselves, so maybe it's time to do something besides point fingers if you want to see things change.

Many changes can be made by the community itself in how they contribute or post, especially considering the concerns listed here in this thread. MFGG staff can't force people to be interested in making "good" fangames and sprites. MFGG staff can not cater content to every person's standards for quality either and if they did, well there goes any interested beginners.

However, threads teaching game development concepts or how to shade without pillow shading can probably do a lot more to help people to make better quality games and sprites. This is something I hope members will help us do.

Unless something requires new features or a policy change, I honestly don't think we should be putting it all on staff to fix the community. There's only so much new features and policy changes can do in the first place imo.

 

[HellJumper]

Technically irrelevant, but since you insist.

[your sprite of mario]
[10:03] Darkonius Mavakar: He's orange
[10:05] HellJumper: Which
[10:05] HellJumper: nose
[10:05] HellJumper: looks
[10:05] HellJumper: better
[11:03] Darkonius Mavakar: First fix the colors
[11:25] HellJumper: They're fine.
[11:27] Darkonius Mavakar: No they're not
[11:27] Darkonius Mavakar: They're too bright
[11:27] Darkonius Mavakar: The skin is orange
[11:28] Darkonius Mavakar: The hat is too red too
[11:34] HellJumper: Go f*** a donkey.

Are people still bringing that up?
I said that simply to p*** people like you off, and it seems like it worked pretty well. But ehhh... that's just one instance. Is that the only one you can find out of all the instances? I'm disappointed in you, Catonator. I expected more from you.

"because whatever was recommended to "improve my sprite" wouldn't improve it, but rather change it."

Alright, so what is your definition of improving? If you're adamant of making no changes to it, then it's not improving it. "it's my artstyle bro" isn't a counterpoint to criticism about basic anatomical or shading mistakes in your art.

Stuff that doesn't fundamentally change the sprite into something it is not, as I have stated plenty of times already. Yes, there is such thing as a bad art style, but it ultimately comes down to personal preference on whether an art style is good or bad. At times, it seems like people are recommending changes that suits their preference, rather than recommending changes that will fix noticable flaws in the sprite.

There is a clear difference between improvement, and change. If you don't like the style I am going for, then you are free to dislike it. Just don't sit there and act like your opinions are objective.

"And a lot of that "constructive" criticism isn't really constructive at all. Most of it is either trash talking, or they don't go into detail. Like instead of saying "this shade has too much saturation", it'd be "The colors don't look riiiiiiiiiight!"

SICK strawman. Most of the time it's really that you didn't get the exact answer you wanted and instead you got criticism on some other flaw in your sprites. Also isn't this kind of ironic? You complained about elitism in your initial post but generally you come across as an elitist about your own opinions.

Oh boy... where do I begin?

"SICK strawman."

This should help you out in the future.

"Most of the time it's really that you didn't get the exact answer you wanted and instead you got criticism on some other flaw in your sprites."
That right there, is what you call a Strawman.

Yeah, obviously it feels better to have your art praised rather than criticized, but constructive criticism helps you improve your art. And if I don't apply whatever changes you recommended, I have my reasoning, and it's not because I'm salty my art is getting criticized. Remember, constructive criticism is there for the artists benefit, so when you start complaining that someone isn't taking your criticism seriously, it just makes you look whiny and immature. Yeah, there have been times where I have explained why I feel that whatever criticism was false, but as I have stated, it's all based on personal opinion. If someone is pissed that I'm not changing my art to suit their preferences, then they can just make their own art.

Can we take this to DM's/PM's and stop flooding this chat with nonsense?

 Jumping feet first into hell isn't my job; making sure it's crowded when I get there is. 

[Pedigree]

HellJumper, Catonator and whoever else please take this personal argument over he said/she said criticism dispute into private messages. You've stretched it too far beyond its relation to this thread.

 

[Pedigree]

Here's the in-depth, point-by-point response to the OP.

I am unveiling the ugly part of MFGG. The part that nobody noticed, or everybody ignored.
The part that is too fundamental to truly fix, because doing so would, in many cases, be unfair, unreasonable, or otherwise unethical. An observant member of this community cannot blame any part of the administration or community for this platform's gradual decline in activity, because doing so misses the greater issues that keep cycling members out, and prevent fresh blood from cycling in.

A. MFGG goes through roller coaster periods of decline and increases of activity, iirc it's not a steady decline but you'll have to ask VinnyVideo for his statistics on that matter.
B. Members naturally move on over time due to a variety of reasons, the most prominent of which is growing out of Mario fangame development as a hobby.
C. We get some great, new members at a decent rate actually. GamerInGeorgia, for example, is active in all the events and contributes some great entries in all of them.

and as somebody who has spent a great amount of time exploring a diverse range of gaming communities, I can confidently assert that fangame developers are just about the worst breed of gamedevs out there.

Gosh, I hope this is hyperbole. If not, what are you doing hanging out in a fangaming community like MFGG? Besides, you kinda trail off without explaining this position clearly. Why are fangame developers the worst breed???

Typical game designers' creative process can be abstracted into two steps:
1) They consider what ideas they wish to express through their design.
2) They consider how they can efficiently construct a game design to propagate those ideas.

Fangamers, on the other hand, usually think with this logic:
1) They consider what ideas they wish to express through their design.
2) They consider how they can express those ideas within the design constraints of their source material.

A. You are definitely oversimplifying here and I feel like that's not doing your argument any favors. The creative process differs from person to person, not just what kind of game you're making.
B. Very rarely have I seen people work strictly within the constraints of the source material here, most of the projects I've seen use the basic Mario gameplay as a starting point and expand from there.

... because fangamers are extremely derivative. There are some exceptions (@SMBMaster99 is a blessing to Pokemon), but the vast majority are interested only in producing more of Mario. More of Pokemon. More of Zelda. They don't want to utilize our lovely interactive medium to express any design remarkably individual. They just want to use Super Mario Bros. as a platform to express their narrative ideas, or their aesthetic ideas, or occasionally their conventionally subversive ideas.

Have you considered fangame developers want to make more Mario games because they are passionate fans of the Mario franchise and have fun doing so?

Fangamers at large do not -- and I am convinced will never -- display this mentality.

I feel like you are arguing with yourself. Not only do you mention LangtonLion64's Super Mario Bros. Dimensions as an example of this mentality but you list a bunch of people below that seem to fit this mentality as well. Never is a long time, and you're not giving people enough credit with this claim.

Also I find this entire argument about "fangames that stick too close to the source material" to be very hypocritical, given you are working on a Super Mario Maker clone that rips off the GUI completely.

So, no matter how much exposure MFGG gets to the greater Nintendo and gaming fandoms, the majority of this community's target demographic (game developers) will find themselves dissuaded by their more derivative peers in most fangaming communities.

Or perhaps there are better platforms out there for those game developers to share their work than a niche Mario fangaming forum? I highly doubt many game developers would scoff at a community for allowing fangamers to post their work.

Fanfiction communities circumvent this issue almost entirely. Some people (those who know nothing) complain that fanfiction is similarly derivative, but it's derivative in a completely different way. Fanfiction holds the capacity to develop and subvert existing ideas, much like fangaming, but without copying the style of its source material. Super Mario Bros. Dimensions is not only about Mario, but it also looks and feels almost exactly like Super Mario Bros. 3. Metropolitan Man, despite being about Super Man, looks and feels wholly original. Most fanfiction is derived from source material beyond literature, so the medium fanfiction necessitates that the artist craft their own literary style. A My Little Pony fanfiction will never feel quite the same as Friendship is Magic, even when both pertain to the same subject. However, a Mario fangame of substantial scope on MFGG always feels very similar to Mario.

Some fans would argue that fanfiction and fanart that doesn't represent the source material well would bother them, don't you think? I have talked to people in various fandoms that avoid fanfiction outside of having a laugh at the author's expense.

I've also noticed that you are trying to make a point about game development but speaking as a player here instead.

Are you trying to tell me that the challenge of programming an authentic Mario clone has no appeal and won't attract any game developers? Starting with a base like Mario is a great place to start for fledgling game developers as well, wouldn't you say?

This community seems only proficient in finishing ambitious projects when they're 2D sidescrolling platformers with an emphasis on jumping to overcome enemies: Abducted Toad, Midas Machine, Psycho Waluigi, Toadette Strikes, Super Mario Bros. Dimensions, etc. Most of those are fine games, but they're all essentially Mario in terms of aesthetic and game design. There are deviations, but none too innovative ever come into fruition. And this community of fangamers is doing nothing to disincentivize itself. And it never will, because it sees no reason to challenge itself.

A. I have to question what you're saying here given that you've mentioned Psycho Waluigi as if it was just another Mario game. Is it just another Mario game because it's a 2D platformer and has some Mario characters? I ask because that's where the similarities end.
B. If you innovate to the point that a game is unrecognizable, wouldn't your effort be better spent working on an indie project with your own characters?

Who is MFGG currently comprised of? Which active members are influencing the whole? Certainly not I. Certainly no longer Mit, or Syaxamaphone, or Mors, or Neweegee, or Random.Nick... because all of us have better things going on. I don't know all of those people I listed very well, but I've conversed with each of them at least enough to know they all desire a meaningful role in the indie gaming industry. Because we have that ambition, we work towards it, and quickly mature beyond the rest of MFGG... and leave for greener and more challenging pastures. I'm only 18 years old, but nearly every game project I've worked on the past two years has been relatively original for this platform (the exception being Everything Mario Maker). My current focus, that I spend no less than 5 hours each day working on, is incomparably more innovative than what MFGG has so far produced (not that it's a particularly high bar).

You are so busy here patting yourself on the back and insulting the rest of the community that you forgot to make your point. Have some humility, for goodness sake and try not to be so rude.

Nobody has yet managed to be a professional fangame developer. UndyingNephalim is probably the closest, but even his Patreon is merely a secondary source of income. Yes, he is close to getting fangaming to be a full-time job, but he's definitely not there yet.

Professional fangame developer? As in, getting paid to make fangames? You are barking up the wrong tree and playing with fire if that's your goal for this community. The amount of work you'd need to put in to be able to make a fangame for profit without getting sued would be ridiculous, and there'd be no point since it would have to be unrecognizable as a fangame.

Fangaming has no ambition, because nobody who makes fangames has ambition.

Again with being pointlessly rude and making statements you can't prove?

Four years ago, MFGG challenged me -- as a child -- but I don't think even children can still benefit from exposure to this community anymore. Everybody who helped me mature has transcended, and the only remnants I see are those who have so far failed to transcend with them. Inevitably, they will either mature as game developers or just lose interest in their mere hobby altogether.

I'm happy you grew and have moved on with your life but you're not the last of the lifeblood of this community that you think you are.

MFGG just has nothing to offer new community members. Besides what I've already mentioned, modern MFGGers lack the expertise to properly critique others' content, and there aren't enough active members anymore to reliably recruit a team. There's an awesome compilation of graphics resource on the Mainsite, but they are tagged inconsistently, so finding useful assets is tedious. The community resources (members with expertise and an urge to teach) are depleted, and this site will never acquire new ones.

What does this community, which largely forgot how to draw pixel art (everybody with aesthetic expertise already left, except for StrikeForcer), won't encourage innovation (fangamers very rarely do), and fails to consistently produce innovative games offer prospective game developers? If you ask me: nothing.

MFGG is not a magical being with games and resources appearing out of thin air, it is a community driven platform. Here you are complaining that nobody is offering proper critique, working together, or teaching but will not lift a finger to do anything about it but complain. If there is nobody to fill these roles as you say, step up and prove that you're as hot a developer as you made sure to tell us you are. Otherwise, the way I see it, your complaints are useless and a waste of time.

If you're not willing to put in some effort for this community, how can you sit there and expect everyone else to listen to you telling them how lackluster they are by comparison?

 

[Yrr]

hellguy i honestly dont know what you expect to get out of mfgg

[GothGirlGangBlasterMaster]

idk if someone told me @Mario's hat was too red i'd tell them to f*** off too

for any inquiries please contact me in hell

[Mario]

idk if someone told me @Mario's hat was too red i'd tell them to f*** off too

very fair response

Proud member of the Shadow █████████████

Interested in web development? Check out Super Mario Web Development. Wahoo!

 

""We choose to go to the [Suggestions board] not because it's easy, but because it's hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."
- John F. Kennedy"
- gothgirlgangblastermaster

[Nessa]

im siding with Helljumper. mgff has a habit of witchhunting a somebody whose disagree with one thing of criticism and treatmenting them like a bad devv maker and too immature to take critisism as a hole

i also found myself in a situation like the chat quote. i was asking for fedback on one thing for a sprite i updated and somebody got mad that i didnt do there previus feedback yet and when i said 'im doing rhis first. one thing at a time' the person got really hostile at me for me 'dodging' criticism.' Darkonius Mavakar too acted like they were entitled to demand Helljumper to do their feedback first and to put off what they were focusing at the time

ive made some wonderful improvements to my work based on criticism but u guys dont own other ppls projects ether and u are not entitled to a devv doing your feeback first

[GuiltyGhost]

Official Mario games haven't been 2D sprite sidescrollers in a loong time but everyone here only ever makes those. Even worse, people seem to only ever make the same kind of sidescroller and try to copy the original physics and feel. It's old and boring.

Then there's the lack of interesting 2D sprite content. A goomba will always only be able to walk unless someone puts in the effort to sprite new animations. If you're a lone programmer, you're probably not going to. So your game will just have vanilla enemies doing what they usually do. If you're a spriter, then you probably don't have the programming skills to actually do anything. If you're a spriter and you're not developing a game, it's unlikely your going to just make sets of new animations since you don't have a concrete use. As a result, we see the same over used graphics over and over.

I'm not asking for people to make original games, just not .. out of date games.

[DustinVG]

Honestly, I might pull a 180 and say the real issue is that everybody is too picky. Let people make what they wanna make. Nobody is forcing you to play it.

My Webs Site

join my discord join it join it right now i'm not gonna ask again

[Yoshin]

The ACTUAL problem with MFGG is people who seem to do nothing but complain and not do anything to try and fix the perceived problems they think exist. All I see is complain complain complain and no actual efforts to change anything. There's a reason I pushed hard to be staff, because I saw that there needed to be change and I had to take matters into my own hands. And what'll you know the change I wanted is happening, we switched to MyBB, a lot of the features I hoped to be implemented are being implemented, and a Hacks section is planned for the mainsite.

Whining and complaining is achieving you nothing.


I also cannot agree with this "everyone must strive to be a game dev" thats like saying everyone who shoots some hoops with the gang should try for the NBA or everyone who likes to look up recipes should become michelin star chefs. Its absurd, this is just a hobby for a lot of us and nothing more. Heck a some of us are just here because we enjoy Mario and this Community and nothing else, that's why I joined originally back in 2008 and its what caused me to come back.

These are my opinions, I am not speaking on behalf of the staff. I cannot be sure if they agree with me 100%

Lando Never Dies
pfp by Plasmi

[Mario]

im siding with Helljumper. mgff has a habit of witchhunting a somebody whose disagree with one thing of criticism and treatmenting them like a bad devv maker and too immature to take critisism as a hole

i also found myself in a situation like the chat quote. i was asking for fedback on one thing for a sprite i updated and somebody got mad that i didnt do there previus feedback yet and when i said 'im doing rhis first. one thing at a time' the person got really hostile at me for me 'dodging' criticism.' Darkonius Mavakar too acted like they were entitled to demand Helljumper to do their feedback first and to put off what they were focusing at the time

ive made some wonderful improvements to my work based on criticism but u guys dont own other ppls projects ether and u are not entitled to a devv doing your feeback first

Fantastic post and it really highlights a problem I've seen with MFGG for years. There's a lot of people out there who get extremely offended if they feel like their criticsm isn't adhered to, and get pretty upset with the person who didn't follow it. People need to understand that criticism is just advice and no one's obligated to follow advice if they don't want to- even good advice. The only people who can decide what goes into their own project are the people working on the project themselves. They have the final say, for better or worse. It's not just their vision, it's their work. Not everyone is making games for the same reasons as you and not everyone is going to make the games you want to see. That's a good thing! We gotta learn to appreciate differences in ideas and approaches to things. And look, sometimes people are just going to make bad games (or bad art, or whatever) and not listen to anyone. They can either learn from their own mistakes or be content with what they did. It's all part of growth and just people having different priorities. Plus a lot of people are probably just stubborn kids who just want to try things their own way- it's fine, they'll mellow out!

Now, don't get me wrong- I like criticsm, I'm glad MFGG has it, it's not something that should go away. Heck, I loved the saga of Mrs. A redlining Raie's badly traced art. It's phenominal to see people putting their best effort to convince others to make the best thing they can. But it's not a big deal if they don't listen. Advice is just advice.

Proud member of the Shadow █████████████

Interested in web development? Check out Super Mario Web Development. Wahoo!

 

""We choose to go to the [Suggestions board] not because it's easy, but because it's hard; because that goal will serve to organize and measure the best of our energies and skills, because that challenge is one that we are willing to accept, one we are unwilling to postpone, and one which we intend to win."
- John F. Kennedy"
- gothgirlgangblastermaster