MFGG Dies by Your Hands Because of Bowsette. Thanks.

[Vert]

all i can say is that this is the most hostile environment ive seen in terms of niche hobbyist development communities

Well I mean, when some members only show up to argue with people whenever something happens that they don't like, that's what you get

[Yrr]

s*** i didnt realise mfgg was above criticism

[Shadow Administrator Drei]

i feel like a broken record, not in this thread or even on mfgg about this, but

whether you like something really isn't a reflection of whether it has merit and positive qualities that deserve recognition. this isn't some "muh objective analysis," but understanding your bias and intellectual capability to distinguish what connects with you and what is effectively executed. you've made it clear that your disdain for the resultant product is driving your abysmal scores, and hopefully people take that forward to disregard your reviews unless they match your thinking, which is what vert clearly expects of members. mental hegemony.

whether hello cares or not doesn't change the situation of "hey, let's regard this piece of media so low that it is represented with an effective null in spite of its bland but present qualities" and the only thing gained from that is your own ego.

Proud member of the Shadow ██████████████

[Yrr]

absolutely devastated to find out that me criticising mfgg is why mfgg is bad in the first place

[Vert]

whether you like something really isn't a reflection of whether it has merit and positive qualities that deserve recognition. this isn't some "muh objective analysis," but understanding your bias and intellectual capability to distinguish what connects with you and what is effectively executed. you've made it clear that your disdain for the resultant product is driving your abysmal scores, and hopefully people take that forward to disregard your reviews unless they match your thinking, which is what vert clearly expects of members. mental hegemony.

whether hello cares or not doesn't change the situation of "hey, let's regard this piece of media so low that it is represented with an effective null in spite of its bland but present qualities" and the only thing gained from that is your own ego.

Yes, if people hate a thing they will give it low scores. If you can find me a reviewer that doesn't have any biases, I got a bridge to sell you.

I have no idea why you seem to think I want this place to become a hivemind though.

absolutely devastated to find out that me criticising mfgg is why mfgg is bad in the first place

There's a way to criticize something without doing it in a hostile manner and not every member seems to be able to do so. Feel free to call me out on the hypocrisy because I fully realize it.

[Yrr]

There's a way to criticize something without doing it in a hostile manner and not every member seems to be able to do so. Feel free to call me out on the hypocrisy because I fully realize it.

im glad we see eye to eye on that at least

[Evan.F]

I feel that I might redo my review for crown land

Stabyourself.net account: https://forum.stabyourself.net/memberlis...ile&u=4218

MFFG main account: https://mfgg.net/index.php?act=user&param=01&uid=15484

Important
It's back

Spoiler

 

[Vert]

There's a way to criticize something without doing it in a hostile manner and not every member seems to be able to do so. Feel free to call me out on the hypocrisy because I fully realize it.

im glad we see eye to eye on that at least

Yeah, I saw your response coming from ten miles away so might as well address it.

My past behavior aside, it's easy for inactive members to jump in only during controversies and claim things on MFGG are black and white and that it's a hostile community because of these controversies, but that's completely ignoring all the history and context leading up to these events. Having some inactive members lash out or insult others doesn't help making that point.

And honestly, Hello is a grown-ass man and has been making fangames here since 2006. He can handle some bad scores and he absolutely knows what this community does and does not respond well to, and with its controversial premise, cringy writing and only marginally improved controls, camera and level design over Prism, it seems doubtful that he didn't see this reaction coming. Doesn't justify how far some people take it but at this point it feels like he's absolutely taking the p***. Not that there's anything wrong with that mind you, if I were him that's exactly what I'd be doing too.

[Evan.F]

Thanks for making me realise it's wayyy worse than I thought

Stabyourself.net account: https://forum.stabyourself.net/memberlis...ile&u=4218

MFFG main account: https://mfgg.net/index.php?act=user&param=01&uid=15484

Important
It's back

Spoiler

 

[Clobbah]

MFGG isn't going to die because people called out a bad game for being bad. Harassment is obviously not okay nor endorsed, but of course we're going to be critical if Hello refuses to improve.

Beware the mighty Wariphant.

[SuperSledgeBro]

Most of the reviews had scores that aren't possible by normal means. (0 and negative numbers)
So, how did they do that?

Spoiler

[Yakibomb]

Initially I felt uncomfortable with the way we were treating Hello's new game. I think it's fair to say, while Hello has been around these parts for over a decade, rating a game based off "well you should've improved, now you are just trolling" attitude is going about it all wrong. (I know I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist I've got) It's like saying to anyone who has been doing any type of skill, and telling them at any moment, "Why are you not good yet?" or "You aren't doing a good job, you must be joking."

This isn't right. It doesn't account for anything else Hello might be going through--And this is absolutely not grounds to harass anyone for.

I think the better way to go about this is to make more constructive criticism about the game's core and intention. Perhaps this isn't for you or me, but rather the person who likes Bowsette and wants to play as the Princess. It might sound odd to you, but people are most definitely weird creatures and like this type of stuff--And this is not something you shame them for. Whether it's for Bowsette or mixing Anime into Mario, the bottom line is it's different--This should be embraced. This should be celebrated. This is such a difficult and off-putting time in everyone's lives that it's not worth the agony to harass a character or the person holding up the art for that character. Please be decent.

To note: I did not actually play the game. I've only seen some screen shots. I only read a couple reviews and the thread showcasing the game. I just don't think anyone (including Hello) deserves the flak they get.


EDIT: I'm going to confront this post and have it evaluated by staff. I was bit unclear with my intention with this post and now that I'm reading the future posts below it, it's sort of making me feel the issue was solved before I posted... The arugment sort of devolved later but I really don't think I helped with anything... so I'm just gonna go away from this thread.

[Shadow Administrator Drei]

MFGG isn't going to die because people called out a bad game for being bad. Harassment is obviously not okay nor endorsed, but of course we're going to be critical if Hello refuses to improve.

It's a hyperbole.

If it isn't endorsed, then why did several staff conduct in it and reinforce it snarkily?

Hello is improving, albeit minimally. I'm not saying don't be critical and you're being dishonest to act like I'm opposed to that: the start of this was my initial critiques of the game.

Honestly, it's just as apparent as ever that doing things conducive to growth of the individual or community aren't in most of y'all's minds.

Proud member of the Shadow ██████████████

[GeneralGuy]

Super Crown Land is way better than the 2s, 1s, and 0 "reviews" suggest. My fangame Paper Mario World 2 is way worse than this, and yet it has a 3.6/10. Super Crown Land should be getting 5-6 at the minimum.

[Mors]

Initially I felt uncomfortable with the way we were treating Hello's new game. I think it's fair to say, while Hello has been around these parts for over a decade, rating a game based off "well you should've improved, now you are just trolling" attitude is going about it all wrong. (I know I'm paraphrasing but that's the gist I've got) It's like saying to anyone who has been doing any type of skill, and telling them at any moment, "Why are you not good yet?" or "You aren't doing a good job, you must be joking."

I'm starting to get convinced that most people commenting like this didn't actually play the game themselves.

It's just an absurd game all around, there is an entire world that's dedicated to mocking the anime culture (either that or he's trying to be hip but lacks self awareness), which is why we think Hello has at least some amount of self awareness but doesn't care.

Super Crown Land is way better than the 2s, 1s, and 0 "reviews" suggest. My fangame Paper Mario World 2 is way worse than this, and yet it has a 3.6/10. Super Crown Land should be getting 5-6 at the minimum.

Then just review it and give it a 6/10

I said this multiple times already but it's all opinions, you don't have to agree with them. You can just post yours there too if you disagree with the common opinion and think the game deserves better.

And I feel like this is what this thread overall comes down to. People either see the reviews and just assume that people must be biased based on the negativity surrounding the game, or play the game, think it's not that bad, and come to the same conclusion. The whole "submitting negative reviews as a joke" thing certainly didn't help either, and I will fully admit that this was our fault and overall was not a good idea. I still don't see reviewing a game 0/10 instead of 1/10 and criticizing it as harassment though.

There were people in the comments section of the game who were straight up being mean to Hello and mocking him, that's true, but we've already dealt with those and told people specifically not to do that.

Either way, I think it's important to realize that while there's a context to why people are being quite harsh towards the game, this context isn't what makes the game bad. It's kind of the opposite, the fact that this game is bad is why people are being harsh with their criticism. You don't have to agree with this notion, but it is what it is. And speaking of that, it's also important to have the ability to comprehend that people might have different opinions on a game than you. Just accept that and move on, or just share yours. (Not specifically talking about anyone in particular here btw)

3DS: 4313-6691-8820
Switch: SW-7679-1093-9792

play my fangame pls

[sooshy]

I'm gonna try (key word 'try') to be civil about this. I got my fair share of 'you're the most obnoxious person I've ever met' earlier during the whole Discord f***-up argument. You know who you are.

This new argument is absolutely stupid. When it all started, people were making the claim that we shouldn't harass Hello anymore. In hindsight, I honestly understand that, and I'm glad that we're working to fix the issue. Many mods have apologized for their actions. I'm really happy that they have the courage to admit that they f***ed up. It takes something that a lot of people lack.

We solved all that (or at least are working to solve it, either way) and it seems like the argument continued anyway. From reading this whole thread, it shifted to being Drei acting like we're absolutely bonkers for disliking the game. Oh my god! People have opinions that I don't agree with! Should I accept and be understanding like a good person or scream at them like a toddler? You can tell which he picked. I'm sorry, but... what the hell, man?

Yeah, the game got bad reviews. The game stunk. If you don't think the game was bad, I'm glad you can appreciate the game in ways that other people can't. But, reviews are purely subjective. Subjective meaning opinion. You aren't obligated to agree with opinions at all. However, it's usually not good manners to accuse low numbers of causing the site to die.

The game got 0s, 1s and even negative numbers. You don't have to give it that! Do you think its a 6? Give it a 6! Do you think its some other number? Give it that! For me, the whole point of reading reviews is to see everyone's different opinions. Why they liked it, why they disliked it. And, these reviews are full of bias. Not saying that's a bad thing, but it's just inevitable. Bias, opinion, all of that non-fact s***.

Drei, this behavior isn't acceptable anymore. If people don't agree that the game is good, you can just say 'ok' and move on. You're still arguing about something that we're already working on fixing. I know quarantine is boring, but don't spend your free time on an argument that goes literally nowhere.

You wanna know why the site is dying? It's not anything in the community, its not y'alls stupid middle school ass dramas and controversies, it's just Nintendo. Go onto a tweet from say, Super Mario Flashback. Read the replies? What do you see? "So sad that this is gonna get DMCAd" "hope nintendo doesn't take this one down" No one in the general public sees drama from MFGG. Hell, when I first joined the site I didn't know there was drama at all. The site is "dying" (hate using that term) because of all of the news articles about Nintendo taking down fan-remakes. The public interpreted this as fangame = lawsuit, and now there's much less of a drive to create fangames.

Drei, you sound like a broken record because you're continuing an argument just for the sake of continuing it. Arguing isn't fun. None of us here WANT to do it. I noticed you were super dormant in the community until all this drama came up. I can tell you're probably only in this community just to scream at people in arguments. Try to be understanding of the fact that others have opinions, and that's OK. I'm not mad at you because you like the game. Not at all, being mad at someone for their opinion is silly. It's silly, Drei.

A SUMMARY OF WHAT I THINK SO YOU DON'T MANIPULATE MY WORDS TO WIN AGAINST ME IN A PETTY ARGUMENT:
-I'm glad we're not being rude Hello anymore. I thought it was funny at the time but I see the issue. Hello still needs to take time to understand his criticism and actually improve next time. I remember I detailed on the Discord why I think people hate this game so much. Hopefully you remember that.
-The game getting bad reviews isn't the problem, it was the way they were worded. Luckily we're working on that. The game sucks for some people, and they're allowed to give their good reasons why. We should all be open to good criticism.
-Site isn't dying because of childlike drama, its because of the Nintendo DMCA things.
-Stop arguing just to argue. A lot of the 'issues' in the community were created because of these petty arguments caused by you all. Had these pointless arguments never happened, the community would be much better. Stop making these goddamn arguments, I just wanna have fun here man. This is a MARIO FAN GAME FORUM. Think about that.

I'll be expecting your quote of this whole thread with a bajillion "counterpoints" with big smart-sounding words so you can continue this useless argument. Make sure to study the rubric for full credit.

Hope everyone has a great day, and continues to work on whatever they're working on. I really gotta get working on my own projects.

TWITTER @sooshyzone
DISCORD sooshy#5346

[Mors]

-Stop arguing just to argue. A lot of the 'issues' in the community were created because of these petty arguments caused by you all. Had these pointless arguments never happened, the community would be much better. Stop making these goddamn arguments, I just wanna have fun here man. This is a MARIO FAN GAME FORUM. Think about that.

I cannot agree with this more. I feel like a lot of the arguments we are having for the last 2 years or so have been caused by select few people suddenly appearing out of nowhere, just to complain about things most of the usual active userbase don't seem to be bothered about. It really does feel like there are people here just to argue and just to call the site s***. This right here is what's killing the site in my opinion, if we exclude all that Nintendo stuff sooshy mentioned that is. People see that we argue about trivial s*** all the time and get turned off. It makes this community not only seem toxic, but BE toxic. We haven't had this happen in a while, and I was optimistic about those times being over, but nope, apparently not.

And again, I'm not saying that the staff was 100% not at fault here, we were most definitely. I've already said that it was a bad idea to allow negative scores, and I'll apologize for that officially here. Some other staff members apologized for being harsh with their comments too.

3DS: 4313-6691-8820
Switch: SW-7679-1093-9792

play my fangame pls

[DJ Coco]

You only have these discussions because you're allowing them.

A vocal minority that contributes absolutely nothing doesn't need to be catered to. You should work on attracting people that actually make good games.

[Evil Yoshi Toes]

Yeah... You raised your concerns about people being overly mean to Hello, and we put an end to it and recognized the issue. OK, done. At this point you're arguing for the sake of arguing and I'm not here to do that, I'm here to enjoy and watch over a fan game community. MFGG is very orderly when a select few people who think themselves the saviors of our community - despite usually being uninterested in it - aren't randomly popping in to drag out a minor issue for days - despite it having been resolved - and bringing to their critiques a passion more appropriate for discussion of hot and heavy world politics. It's a fan game website. We appreciate advice. We do not appreciate an immature desire to be argumentative disguised as advice.

[Pedigree]

You only have these discussions because you're allowing them.

A vocal minority that contributes absolutely nothing doesn't need to be catered to. You should work on attracting people that actually make good games.

The last time you submitted a game to the site was 5 years ago, just saiyan.

I appreciate that you guys addressed the toxic reaction, but part of the problem is that this thread had to be made before you would do anything about it in the first place. Staff members were defending the behavior on the site before this thread was created. As much as you complain that people are just being argumentative for the sake of being argumentative, it has always been the only way that anything gets addressed on this community. If we had let it go the toxic comments would still be all over that game and negative review scores would still be plastered on it as well.

If you want people to be less argumentative, perhaps take the time to listen to their concerns more without fighting so hard not to address feedback from or try to own people you just don't like.

As for Sooshy, nothing is stopping you from having fun. This thread is very easy to ignore. Instead of coming in to preach that people should just shut up for the sake of your entertainment, you could just as easily just stay out of it yourself. There is nothing forcing you to read the thread.

You guys arguing that anyone that raised a concern about this issue is just being argumentative and has no interest in contributing to this community is a huge part of the problem between members and staff. Stir really should be less toxic towards you, but not everyone that has a concern about this issue is Stir and it would be great if you would stop just lumping everyone that isn't on your side in an issue with them.

I was looking forward to the game jam until you guys lumped me in with stir and just dismissed me as nothing but a troll. I still love making fangames and just haven't had the inspiration lately.